Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

December 02, 2020, 08:46:26 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent Posts

 

Author Topic: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound  (Read 17604 times)

J M Fahey

  • SSGuitar Global Mod
  • Legendary
  • ****
  • Posts: 4142
  • Chip Points: 429
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2012, 06:58:45 AM »
Yes, that's about it.
And as you checked, homebuilders can often "spend the extra $10".  ;)

spud

  • Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Chip Points: 4
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2012, 10:04:10 PM »
Ok - so an update is in order.  We haven't played in a while so nothing new on the amp and cab front.  What I've been doing is looking for a new speaker for the guitar amp.  So far I think I'm going with the Warehouse Guitar Speaker (WGS) Retro 30 or the HM-75.  Here's a comparison I've compiled.  Some of the data is from other comparison charts but I just put it all into one (rather than 2 or 3).  The pricing is from the web (Amazon and Parts Express) but the WGS prices are from them direct.  Note that the WH (Plus) column is Warehouse Plus models.  These are enhanced models that map back to previous versions under the "Warehouse" column. 

Anyway, I'll post the links of the comparison Vids if anyone is interested. 

Jim
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 10:23:08 PM by spud »

joecool85

  • SSGuitar Admin
  • Legendary
  • ******
  • Posts: 3330
  • Chip Points: 991
  • SSG Creator
    • View Profile
    • thatraymond.com
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2012, 10:43:08 AM »
Ok - so an update is in order.  We haven't played in a while so nothing new on the amp and cab front.  What I've been doing is looking for a new speaker for the guitar amp.  So far I think I'm going with the Warehouse Guitar Speaker (WGS) Retro 30 or the HM-75.  Here's a comparison I've compiled.  Some of the data is from other comparison charts but I just put it all into one (rather than 2 or 3).  The pricing is from the web (Amazon and Parts Express) but the WGS prices are from them direct.  Note that the WH (Plus) column is Warehouse Plus models.  These are enhanced models that map back to previous versions under the "Warehouse" column. 

Anyway, I'll post the links of the comparison Vids if anyone is interested. 

Jim

I'm surprised that I don't see the Eminence Legend on there...or any Weber speakers for that matter.
Life is what you make it.
Still rockin' the Dean Markley K-20X
thatraymond.com

spud

  • Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Chip Points: 4
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2012, 01:59:12 PM »
Joe,

I didn't create the comparisons but got the info from various sources and mapped them all out on one SS. 

I found this that mapped the Celestians with the Eminence models: 


http://thetoneking.com/wp/eminence-celestion-speaker-comparison-chart/


and this:

http://forums.peavey.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6947&p=42694

also some more comparisons here.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-124326.html

The WGS data I got from their site:

http://wgs4.com/sites/default/files/WGS2011.pdf

I didn't see anything that mapped Weber directly to Celestian like I found about the EMI's or WGS but it might be out on the web somewhere I just didn't do the correct search phrasing for it.  And to be fair there's the whole ToneTubby and Hellatone as other options but they are typically higher $ and I'm on a serious budget. 

One last thing is that I'm looking at replacing a speaker in a Marshall so I was focused on the Celestian comparison angle so I didn't even consider Jensens - which may be a fallacy in my thinking but in my mind Jensen is more for Fender type amps.

Jim

J M Fahey

  • SSGuitar Global Mod
  • Legendary
  • ****
  • Posts: 4142
  • Chip Points: 429
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2012, 11:20:58 AM »
Let me add that when comparing you must substract 3 dB from the Eminence published specs.
They measure "different from the others" but the acknowledgment is buried in the small print which nobody reads.
So Eminence's , say, "impressive" 101dB really means 98dB and so on.
Peavey published a paper with some serious Math complaining about that "trick" used by others.
Oh well.

phatt

  • Legendary
  • ******
  • Posts: 2148
  • Chip Points: 262
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2012, 10:18:02 AM »
Hi Spud, still struggling with this? :'(

OK maybe try a different approach,, Maybe try a Graphic EQ in the signal, might work out cheaper. :tu:
I use 2 tone altering circuits in my setup and I'm apparently the loudest player at the local club yet I only use a 40 Watt SS Amp.

That Amp originally had a Fane driver and it was not just much louder it was insanely bright as well so I swapped it for a no name driver which obviously is not as high in the SPL department.
But at least now my sound is far more balanced.

I also have an Eminence Legend driver from a Deluxe and that is also much louder but they do tend to sound very harsh. (situation depends what style of music to some extent)

Also,
You may find the other player could just turn down to accommodate the situation.

Some players seem to just play at the same volume failing to realise that if they just turned down for the rhythm parts or while other players are playing their part it would make for a far better result.

Although I said I play loud that is only when I play the lead part,, the rest of the time I only play a few grace notes between the lyrics,, if it suits.
just a thought?
Phil.

spud

  • Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Chip Points: 4
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2012, 01:08:17 PM »
Phil,

Still messing around with this although I've gotten a better sound by working the eq and pedals I have now.  But i haven't abandoned your eq approach - just looking for an eq that will meet the needs and is priced right.  For some reason they are all pretty pricey around here (Wash DC/N VA area).  I'd like to find a stereo one that I can re-purpose and have the advantage of using the L/R as 2 alternate eq channels - sound familiar?  :)

I decided to look at speakers since I'll be getting a 16 ohm as the internal speaker for the Marshall.  When I found the comparisons, I decided to compile them and post here.  Also WGS speakers look like a great alternative and from I've seen on YouTube and other places compare well to the Celestians, as much as you can get from YouTube vids.

I've also been looking at just running clean and doing all my overdrive from pedals.  I'm seriously considering the Valvecaster or one of its variants (as on DIYSTOMPBOXES and BeavisAudio). 

Jim

J M Fahey

  • SSGuitar Global Mod
  • Legendary
  • ****
  • Posts: 4142
  • Chip Points: 429
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2012, 09:47:02 PM »
Hi Spud.
I guess you can get a Home Hi Fi type Equalizer for peanuts at a local garage sale, Salvation Army type shop , maybe even Craigslist and such.
They were very popular once, there must be many now unused ones around.

mexicanyella

  • Elite
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
  • Chip Points: 10
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2012, 12:37:53 AM »

I've also been looking at just running clean and doing all my overdrive from pedals.  I'm seriously considering the Valvecaster or one of its variants (as on DIYSTOMPBOXES and BeavisAudio). 

Jim

You might find a some unique sonic distortion aspect that appeals to you by combining distortion-producing pedals with low-to-medium gain with your amp in a low-to-medium gain setting. Sometimes you can get more complex-sounding tones and responses to input level dynamics this way. The downside being that you might have to try a lot of things together with one another to land on a combination that appeals to you. But for some people, all that gear trying is a part of the fun, and maybe you're like that.

I'd think using a lower-gain, OD-type pedal into a Valvestate (dirty channel, but gain set pretty low) could sound pretty neat. In my case, I discovered, mostly by accident, that my ProCo Rat 2 pedal sounded really great when followed by my BBE DI-10 direct box, with the speaker simulator switched on...then into the amp. The speaker sim filtered out the sort of harsh, fizzy buzz aspect of the Rat and what was left sounded more amp-like and punchy and real. Setting the Rat at a gain level where it was just barely breaking up with single-coils and just barely crunchy with humbuckers, and running it into an amp just on the verge of breaking up itself...rhythm guitar heaven. Hitting this combo with a clean gain boost made this great big fat overdriven sustainy singing solo sound...loose but not farty, and no overt harsh buzziness. It really suited me well for what I was doing at the time, and it just came about because I liked to plug stuff in in weird orders and try it and that time I lucked out.

QReuCk

  • Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
  • Chip Points: 13
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2012, 05:03:05 AM »
Spud, if you search for a graphic EQ with 2 outputs to drive either 2 different sound chains or 2 amps, maybe have a look at MXR m108 Kerry King. It's 10 bands, have a pre gain and post overall level, have 2 outputs...
Sounds promizing, even if a bit pricey.
What's interesting is that you have the 2 most bass bands outside of typical guitar range. Might look unneaded, but it's an opportunity to cut completely (well, not completely but -12db is pretty significant I would say) these unneeded frequencies and therefor help your amp dealing with only what really matters. Same in the high range with 8 and 16 Khz. Use the rest of the bands to fine tune how your signal will be presented to your drive.
In my recent testings, I found that there is a lot to do with pre-dist EQ, not in terms of general EQ, but in terms of what part of the sound your dist will clip/compress.
I'm currently simulating some clipping on complexe signals made of several harmonics (guitar signals are NOT sinusoids, even when playing single notes, and obviously more so when struming chords). I'm not at the point where I can present some results, but it's really interesting how filtering some of the harmonics and frequencies produced by the guitar before clipping (I'm using a square hard clipping for simulation purpose) does affect a lot the wave form of the resulting signal.
Clean boosting has its merrits, but if you can combine it with some alteration of the EQ in the same time, you're golden.
Another thing to try would be to insert a soft clipping slight overdrive adjusted to just barely clip the heaviest strummed chord you can make before your amp. This retains a lot of dynamic variations. Then you set your amp dist to clip a bit before that. You know have access, just with the power of your attack on the strings to:
- clean and clear tone when strumming really gently
- various amounts of distortion, in proportion with your attack
- a really fat tone with lots of sustain when both stages clip
This is really subtle to adjust, but if your overdrive as a different colour to what your amp does and you are able to control your attack, you will be able to have a lot of variety in how each note sounds. It's also super usable for "let ring" arpegios: the attack might be clipped, but as the note decreases, it becomes cleaner and cleaner so you have both sustain and clarity. Combine this with intellingent EQing before your clipping stages (actually, even the tone pots of a guitar are a really basic sort of pre-dist EQ) and you will find that your amp might produce impressive tones. Well, this might cost you a lot of time to experiment, but I'm pretty sure the results will be worth it.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 05:29:07 AM by QReuCk »

spud

  • Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
  • Chip Points: 4
    • View Profile
Re: My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2012, 12:56:10 AM »
Thanks for all the great input guys.

JM - Yeah, you'd think there would dozens of them but I've looked on Craigslist and hadn't seen much.  I'll have to be more diligent and check more often.  As far as garage sales, I hadn't considered that but might give it a try.  I suppose they're listed on Craigslist as well.  I was also thinking about the old Pawn shop - I managed to get a decent dual Sony cassette deck there for $50.- a while back when mine died on me.  It was in perfect shape and still works great. 

Mex - I was working along those lines too - I finally figured out that the way the amp is designed, with all the distortion coming from the pre-amp on the OD channel (using the tube and clipping LEDs), my sound is way fuller if I run on the clean channel and use by old Boss OD pedal.  I do that mostly now but every once in while I need some real massive OD and what I've found is that I can do pretty good if I turn down the dist on the amp and run my OD with minimal OD (just starting to break up) I can get some pretty nice thick lead tones out it that way, thicker than before.  I think the amp's natural distortion starts to sound thin when you really turn up the volume - it sound great a lower volume but as you turn it up, it gets shrill and thin - even with lots of mid and bass and little treble.  Getting the dist lower preserves more of the punch and doesn't thin it out so much.  I have another dist pedal that I need to experiment with more to try an use that as well to see how that works. 

QReuCk - I've seen that EQ but I'm looking for super cheap so it's kind of outside my price range at the moment.  Thanks for the suggestion though.  Your setup ideas are right on though and I'm already on to some of that in my experiments with my amp and the pedals I have.  My pedal board is pretty limited (in order) is: Cry baby Wah (the "original" one), Delta Lab Rock Dist (cheap dirt pedal), Boss OD-1, Washburn Chorus, Boss TU-3 tuner.  Oh, I'm also using a A-B switch now to switch between my Strat to Ibanez - just quicker/easier/cleaner than un-plugging/plugging to switch guitars. 

One thing is that I've been kind of limited in what I can do experimentation wise because my is over at the drummer's house - I have to arrive early to rehearsal to try out different set ups.  But I think I'll drag that thing home next time and work with it here with various set ups to nail this down once and for all.  At home I've been using one of the tube amps I've built - the AX-84 HO and my Jet City 16 ohm cab.  I really like to play the HO at home but it's just not loud enough to play with the the band.  I tried it once and it was just not quite loud enough - everyone kept saying that I needed to turn it up. 

About the AX-84 HO amp: It's a singled ended amp with a "hot rodded" Marshal pre-amp.  It can run a EL84 or 6V6 to max output: about 5-7 watts.  It can also run other Octals: EL34 or 6L6 too but those it won't push to the max due to PT voltage/current ratings - it gets about 10 or so watts out of one of those where it should be closer to 15 or more - some folks run the larger 5881/6550 or KT-66 or even KT-88 for up to 12 watts or so (but I figured if I can't get the max output, I'll just stick with my EL34 or 6L6).  The PT only puts out ~290V at ~70ma.  The output tube is run between 250v for the EL84 and 280v for the Octals.  The PT's current capacity is really the limiting factor because I can't bias the output tube to more than 60-63mA because there are 2 12AX7 pre-amp tubes - it starts sagging and stealing current from the pre-amp if I set the bias higher than 63mA or so.  At these voltages you'd have to bias the EL34 at over 80mA to get max output, the larger tubes would be even higher - inverse voltage/current relationship - higher voltages would require less current.  Typically I run the larger Octals around 60ma and the 6V6 much lower, 40-45mA or so and the EL84 sub-40mA.  It has a bias pot/circuit on it to set the bias for the different tubes - a monster pot with a locking nut on the shaft which only takes a screwdriver to turn.  I built it back in 2006 from a kit I got from Doberman Amps (the retail side of AX84 - the amp building forum).  I have pics of it if your interested. 

Again, thanks for all the ideas,

Jim