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Author Topic: what classifies as a SS reverb  (Read 3235 times)

pcalug

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what classifies as a SS reverb
« on: October 22, 2015, 08:14:01 AM »
Thought I would go to the source on this one.  No amp guru here...

 Big heated discussion.  Specifics: Fender Hot Rod Deville. Was told (with serious snobbery lol)  its a solid state reverb because of the two tl072 op amps surrounding the reverb pan. Took a look at the schematic.. I liked it to more of a hybrid. from what I;m looking at.  Circuit (standard Fender stuff) simplified version ... it i.e. the signal looks to come from comes from a preamp ( a 12ax7 vac tube) into the tl072 then into the reverb pan, out again into the tl072..then if im looking at it correctly.... into another 12xa7 then moves to a 6LS (in Series?? ) hits the transformer then on to the speakers.

I don"t classify a ss as something that has vac tube in the IC (it also looks to me the the Tl072's are acting like values and nothing more)  again more of a hybrid. 

Honestly. I like what I see.  IMO.... The IC looks to prevent that nasty violent reverb slap back that one gets if playing the amp when/if it get's jolted (Which in my opinion can't be good for the amp overall)  And the Reverb quality is great and modern to the ear.   I'm wondering if Fender chose this method to prevent breakdowns. 

any comments? opinions?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:17:25 AM by pcalug »

phatt

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Re: what classifies as a SS reverb
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2015, 08:29:31 AM »
Fender make it that way to save heaps of cost.

As to hybrid, If I'm looking at the right schematic, Then regardless of reverb circuit the original signal does pass through a buffer stage so in that case it's not ALL thermionic amplification. Not a good amp IMO but hey if you like it go for it. :tu:

I believe it's the biggest selling Fender amplifier,, go figure.  :-X
Phil.


pcalug

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Re: what classifies as a SS reverb
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2015, 03:37:04 PM »
Hot rod  deviles are Fender's highest selling amps because the amp sounds pretty damn good. Can't argue with its popularity. On the subject of reverb ... Once u drop a chorus , delay and some gain pedal (and God knows what else) True pristine tube reverb is kinda moot isn't it? Since most working musicians have to play several genres of music (surf music not being one of them ) ultra pristine tribe tube reverb isn't in high demand.  Does a point to point  Vibro king sound better than a HRD .. Yes ... But by how much? And would it with a modern pedal rig?  Debatable ... Last ... You going to haul a $2500 amp in and out sweaty bars???

Enzo

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Re: what classifies as a SS reverb
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2015, 05:32:27 PM »
Don't over think it.  it is a tube amp with a solid state reverb circuit.  No need to try to analyze it further.   We don't call it a hybrid amp because it is really a tube amp.  A solid state rectifier instead of a rectifier tube does not make an amp a hybrid - the Fender Twin reverb, for example, is never considered hybrid, even though the rectifiers are silicon diodes.  When we call an amp hybrid, it means the amp is like half and half.  So the peavey Mace or Classic are hybrids because they have solid state preamps and tube power amps.  Same with the Music Man amps.   And a tube preamp with a solid state power amp is the same thing, a hybrid.

Some hybrid amps are mixed together, so preamp tubes feed op amps and vice versa.   But in the Hot Rod DeVilles and similar, the basic signal path is all tube.  There are op amps for portions of the path in use for the FX loop, but when the loop is not in use, neither are those op amps.  An IC based reverb is not enough to make an amp a hybrid.  The reverb circuit is a side chain.

Specifically, the signal path is tube, then the signal is sampled off for the reverb, and fed to an op amp IC to drive the reverb pan transducer.  Then the output of the reverb pan is fed to a recovery amplifier stage, the other half of the IC, and returned to the signal path.

If you look at the HRD schematic, and at J4, the power amp in jack, pins 4 and 5 are normalled together in the jack, and that forms a direct path from the preamp out at K2a and the power amp input at R40.  No silicon in that path.  The op amps are only involved when the loop is occupied.

I like the HRD.  The clean channel sounds good to me.  The dirt channel?  Well, I don't think Fender could design a good sounding overdrive channel if their lives depended on it, but...

pcalug

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Re: what classifies as a SS reverb
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2015, 10:13:47 PM »
Great post/reply Enzo!   :) thanks    Clears up a lot.

Quote
Well, I don't think Fender could design a good sounding overdrive channel if their lives depended on it, but...

Isn't that the truth... lol.   Totally agree with you on the HRD. Great Clean! Great for pedals.... But Gain Meh??
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 10:15:31 PM by pcalug »

phatt

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Re: what classifies as a SS reverb
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2015, 08:59:17 AM »
Thanks for the insight Enzo,, Yes all SS reverb but I've heard a lot better Reverb from lesser known brands. :-X

At *pcalug* obviously you like the amp but be aware you probably need to keep an open mind to what constitutes great tone as many paths can lead to the same result. There is no exact *One Way* to make great tone. 8)

A mate of mine owns a 212 Deville and while helping Him with some tecky issues,, (ye old chasing tone conundrum most guitar players go through) I inserted a small tone box I built and it really showed up the short comings of that amplifier.

It was mentioned on a posting here a while back that HiWatt Tone circuit sounds more Fender than,,  you guessed it,, A Fender.
Food for thought, Go figure? xP
Phil.

pcalug

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Re: what classifies as a SS reverb
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 12:30:25 AM »
 Phill I think your opinion is subjective... 

I have the ML HRD with a vk 212 cab and I think it sounds great. (and I'm a working musician of 25 yrs)

Reverb sounds pretty modern to me.. i.e. 2015. I like that... The reverb is tighter.. Not inferior...just different. More modern sounding...probably attributed to the SS i.e. tl072's  However the ML HRD is still all tube... and with 6L6 seems it's close to a Baseman IC. (as are all HRD) IMO.. So the reverb isn't as lush as a $2500 Vibro King... surf music not all that much in demand now.

I factor in too....
When one employs a pedal rig w/ Delay, Chorus & Gain etc... as most working musicians do..  'all tube" reverb kinda get's lost in the mix.

Honestly,  I don't recall my Uncle's 1972 Fender Twin sounding any better quality wise...  or my 1984 JCM800 Marshall 100watt ...i.e in reference to reverb wise either... (certainly doesn't clean wise also.... !!!!!)

Guys like Michal Landau, Wayne Kratz or  Dave Keuning (just too name a few) have been using HRD's for years... Its a solid respectable journeyman's amp... if its good enough for them its certainly good enough for me...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 12:35:36 AM by pcalug »

Enzo

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Re: what classifies as a SS reverb
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2015, 02:01:37 AM »
Well, the amp for YOU (whoever you might be) is the one that sounds good to YOUR ears.  Nothing else really matters.

pcalug

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Re: what classifies as a SS reverb
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2015, 07:55:42 AM »
 
Well, the amp for YOU (whoever you might be) is the one that sounds good to YOUR ears.  Nothing else really matters.

Agreed.

IMO... Tone is subjective. 

What constitutes "Great Tone" by the masses often revolves around a band's vibe, specific song, musician's technique or their unique use of the equipment involved in the process.
 
Example: A Great tone that comes from technique.. at my age (I'm 49)  I don't really get excited about a new major label artist. Yes, I listen to new artist (Love Rival Sons!.. not really new are they though... )  What guys like me tend to really dig is other musicians working hard. I admire this guy (about 10 yrs older... plays a lot of classic rock and 60's Motown... plays though a Peavy Classic 30 combo. He delivers a great performance every night... plays with taste & never over plays etc... Sounds incredible, Uses a Strat... Great tone! Peavy Classic 30 combo isn't what many would call a premium amp... But...through his hands one would never know it!  So... SS, Tube etc etc....  it's what sounds good to you.. and how you're inspired to use it...

It's all good in the end.   
 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 08:03:50 AM by pcalug »

 

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