None of my amps are farting at the moment, but that is an extremely informative, thoughtful, helpful, thorough and well-presented post. Thank you.

I don't know that amp, but it's got a line out jack on the back...if you decide there's a tone there that you can't get from other amps, you could connect that line out jack to another amp's line in, power amp in or effects return jack and get the little Johnson sound at higher volumes.

Or, you could buy a used rackmount power amp and drive it from your Johnson's preamp, in order to power one or more guitar speaker cabinets.

Or you may be able to hold your own with your bandmates, volume-wise, just as you are right now...at least in rehearsal. Try it and see.

Be wary of online reviews saying pickups are too warm or whatever. It's totally possible that you would disagree; always try and listen for yourself when possible.

Is that F-hole guitar an Ibanez Artcore-something? Looks nice.

I'll check out your band clip later when I can turn up the computer speakers and rock out without my wife looking at me like I'm retarded. But in the meantime:

Don't assume a Fender amp is what you need to amplify a Fender guitar. Some would argue that a Fender guitar's bright, single-coil sound is best served by a darker, thicker amp...or that the fatter, porkier sound of a two-humbucker Gibson is well served by a bright, loud, fairly clean Fender silverface amp, like a Twin. But that stuff is all subjective and depends heavily on the context you're hearing it in, how the band interacts, the genre of music, the player's approach...it's a sea of question marks. You just have to try stuff and eventually decide what serves your approach. But don't rule out what you already have, at least not yet.

Amps and guitars are tools that make sounds, and all sound combinations have an application somewhere, with somebody. One of my favorite guitarists ever is Ty Tabor, from King's X, who played for years and four albums with one of those weird early 80s Strat Elites with the odd active pickups, into the preamp section of an old Lab Series L5 solid state amp, through a graphic EQ and various delay effects into a big Crown PA power amp driving multiple 4 x 12 cabinets. That rig had to be the result of a lot of experimenting and chasing a sound he heard in his head...while not being concerned with brand names. Besides, the notion of "Fender Amp" covers a LOT of ground. Early tweed Fender amps sound warm, loose (some might say sloppy and out of control) and fuzzy, like Chicago blues guitar or in extreme cases, Neil Young when he's rockin out. But then there's super clean twangy Fender sound like what country guys might do with a Telecaster through a Deluxe Reverb or a Twin Reverb. Or you could get a Performer 1000/Roc Pro 1000 and have intense buzzy metally distortion if you were messing around with one of the later hybrid amps like a Performer 1000/Roc Pro 1000, etc...you kind of have to try stuff and listen on a case-by-case basis.

The linking two amps together thing...it's one approach to getting more volume by using multiple small amps instead of a big one. There are various reasons you might do this; in my case I happened to have a pair of little old tube amps I liked the sound of, and while one of them wasn't quite loud enough to gig comfortably with, two of them were just right for most of the St. Louis clubs we were able to get gigs at. Now, those amps were pretty much one-trick ponies...they sounded great to me at one specific volume level....too low and they sounded boring, too loud and they sounded too sloppy and out of control, and the right level was too loud for basement practice and not quite loud enough in a big room. So, I ran my signal through my couple of pedals and then a little Boss reverb unit with stereo outputs, and ran one output into each amp. I didn't need stereo reverb at all, but the stereo outputs were a handy way to split my signal into two amps. A lot of chorus pedals and floor multieffects units have stereo outs too. And when the tube amps crapped out once in awhile, I'd have to substitute my practice amp--Peavey Audition 20--which was not loud enough for a gig by itself, but if I stereo paired it with my friend's Crate GX15, it was just loud enough to get by while the tube amps were being fixed. Since at that time I was amplifying the sounds of pedals and the amp was just adding a little distortion to that, either way worked for me. The amps alone were fairly clean.

Later, in my next band, I needed a different sound to blend right and I'd settled on a lightly distorted sound from the Peavey--like what you hear on the song link. When I needed to get that sound at a louder level for gigs, I slaved the Peavey into a second amp, by taking a line level signal from the Peavey's line-out jack and sending that to a different amp. Then the second, "slave," amp got the job of amplifying the Peavey's signal to add more power stages and speakers but retain the tone I liked from the Peavey. The best way to do this is if the slave amp has a line in jack or an effects return jack for the effects loop. That way you are bypassing all the controls on the second amp since you're bypassing its preamp, and its performance is controlled from the preamp in the master amp. Only one set of knobs to turn.

But in my case, I used one or both little tube amps for slaves, which don't have effects loops or line in jacks. The Peavey's line out signal is low enough in volume that I could just plug it into the tube amp's instrument input and be conservative with the volume settings so as not to overload the tube amp's input with too hot an input signal. The slave amps didn't have to work THAT hard anyway; the Peavey was cranked pretty hard and the slaves were just helping a little bit, since the band itself wasn't that loud. (Most people would probably slave a small tube amp through a larger solid state slave amp, since they'd want to preserve and amplify a cool-sounding but too-quiet tube distortion. In my case, the tone I wanted came from a solid state amp and I just happened to have a pair of little tube amps to use as slaves...so I was bass-ackwards about it).

Once I/we get a look at your little Jo-...I mean your amp, we can probably suggest some ways to use it for live...

Yeah, I'm with Phatt on that one; running two little amps has always worked well for me, either as a stereo pair or in a master amp/slave amp situation.

Can you post the model of amp you're using, or some photos of it, or something? Seeing its specs and features might prompt ideas for you to try with it, etc...

Just in case my post above didn't seem long enough, I'm posting a second time, with even more words!

Quote from: daozen on May 11, 2012, 03:07:26 PM
I've got a cheap Johnson guitar/amp combo I got more than 12 years ago, and I've never really played anything else.

I've gone through various gear phases but for years now have been using my first amp my parents bought me way back in high school...the little Peavey Audition I mentioned before. After "outgrowing" it and passing it on to various little cousins and nephews to learn on, it came back to me several years later and I realized I really liked how it sounded. I just needed to spend some time convincing myself I was a real guitarist because I had a big amp, first. If you like the tone you're getting now, maybe you can skip that wasteful "I'm legit because my amp is big" growth phase...?

I do use a korg effects pedal to get a decent sound, but I can't play the guitar clean as it sounds like the cheap chinese thing that it probably is

You don't mention what kind of guitar/pickups you're using, or what kind of music you're playing, but if you've got a compressor in the Korg, and especially if your guitar has single-coil pickups, gentle compression can really help little solid-state amps get a more pleasing clean tone. Set correctly, the compressor can soften note attacks a little, or add punch, or sustain, or some combination of all of those, and also help make a nice cutting rhythm tone that's right on the edge of distortion. You want to use lower gain settings earlier in the amp's signal path (on my Peavey, that is called "pre gain") and crank the later gain stages to make up the volume (post gain), so you're pushing a louder, cleaner signal through the power amp and working the speaker harder. In my case, running all three EQ knobs at low-to-middle settings helps the tone seem fuller, rounder and less harsh, but still plenty bright, and with lots of adjustability range up or down. Trying to pull a bunch of bass "chunk" or get a big scooped-mid sound out of a little SS combo is kind of spinning your wheels. But you can punch a bunch of snarly, midrangey rock craziness through a mix with a small SS rig. Here's a recording of me doing that with a single-coil Gibson Melody Maker, a DOD clean boost pedal for solos, a DOD compressor pedal and a Peavey Audition 20. All the electric guitar you hear is that setup:

http://alonetone.com/benniven/tracks/bleach-bald-snow-tires

Even if you don't like that kind of tone as much as me, you can hear how it's pretty present in the mix. That's not because I'm a great audio engineer; it's because the amp is putting out a nice cutting sound and not competing with the other instruments for mix space. Keeping that kind of thing in mind will help you in both live situations and recording.

I set the knobs on full vol, full overdrive, and on top of that, it gets the full tube overdrive effect and a decent amount of delay and reverb from the pedal. It always sounds like it's screaming for it's life at very low vols, but I'm not sure about how much of the sound comes from the pedal and how much from the amp.

I've heard that Jonny Greenwood from Radiohead gets his dirty sound from a SS red-knob Fender combo (an Eighty-Five, maybe) with everything pretty much dimed.

Spend some time just plugged straight into the amp with no pedal and give it a workout; you'll figure out how much of it the amp can do eventually.

I'm getting a deluxe mexican Fender strat soon (vintage noiseless pickups), and I'm thinking about getting the Frontman 212r amp to go with it but I'm not sure about it!!! I feel I won't get the singing overdrive I get from my cheap 30 watt amp. At the same time, I'm not sure if I will be able to mic the amp at every gig, as I own neither an extra mic nor a proper PA so I would have to rely on the local setup everytime, can that be a problem? Or is it rare they won't be able to mic the amp?

You have no way of knowing the answers to those things until you have the new guitar and can try it through some stuff. Don't rush it. See how it works with what you have, and whether you like it or not, go put some music store showroom staff to work and try stuff.

Re: the PA, talk to some bands that play places you'd like to play, and get a sense of what places around you hire bands that play your kind of music. Find out what range of sound systems they have, or if you need to be packing your own.

If you need to pack your own and will be playing small places, check CL for powered mixer heads from Peavey or Crate; there are usually 4- and 6-channel ones available pretty cheap. You can amplify a couple vocalists, the kick drum and maybe the snare through a pair of small PA speakers on speaker stands and play smaller bars and parties and stuff like that. It'll sound good enough to have fun doing it. Add a small powered monitor, or a non-powered monitor or two with a power amp fed from one of the PA head's auxiliary outputs, and you'll even be able to hear what you're doing on stage...a total luxury.



On the other hand, I feel the f212r is perfect in terms of price and usability. I wouldn't have to rely on miking the amp for starters, and it seems I won't need a bigger amp unless we start playing stadiums. I play using mostly overdive and delay/reverb but I would love to use clean stuff aswell as my complex chords lose color and get muffled with the overdrive. So, will I still be able to get the crazy overdriven sound I get from the pedal alone if I get the 212, or if not will it still sound better on both the clean and overdriven setup with the help of the pedal?You can't answer that yet. Too many unaddressed variables. You seem to like the amp you have, and miking...it's not a big deal. You WANT to find places with good enough PAs that you'll be miked, regardless of how big your amp is. The question I think you should be concerned with is whether you can hear your amp over the other bandmembers, and whether they can hear you. If so, move your show onto a stage and mic stuff and then you'll be good. You can't assume you'll need a bigger, louder amp so you can be really big and loud. You need to think in terms of the ensemble you're in and how big you need to go to hold your own there without blowing your bandmates off the stage or making them strain to hear you.

Thanks Anyone!

Those are hard questions to answer without knowing more about the people you'll be playing with, and to a lesser degree, the venues you'll be playing in.

I've heard people say that you need a 50-watt half stack to comfortably play with drums. But drums, drummers and drumming approaches vary A TON. The volume sensitivity of your bandmates matters A TON. My first band had members who were pretty volume insensitive, and made up for it by having really big amps and a loud drummer. It was a thrill some of the time and a mixing headache (and general headache) other times. I'd have hated to have been our soundman.

My two subsequent bands existed with much quieter stage volumes, more reserved drumming, a smaller bass amp and I was able to get away with a pair of 15-watt tube amps fed by a couple of pedals and a stereo reverb unit. The amps were up maybe halfway and it was plenty loud. I got by at practice with the same pedals into a 12-watt solid state Peavey, and had to gig with it once in awhile (paired with a borrowed Crate GX15) when the tube amps were malfunctioning.

So if you're not in the full-on "REJOICE, ROCK BONEHEADS!!!!" mode,  you may be well able to get by cranking on your little Johnson (sorry). Your point about wanting to get more into using clean sounds...well, that may be an issue with that amp size. When I was using those little amps, I generally hovered right at the edge of distortion on most of my playing and never did anything that was crystal clean. I'd have needed more watts if my approach had incorporated that kind of stuff.

We played a variety of different-sized and different-budgeted clubs around St. Louis, and a few outdoor things or college auditorium-type things, so I think we experienced a variety of different stage approaches, and generally, if you're playing little neighborhood dive bars, the PA--if any--will likely limit you, by its small number of channels and limited monitoring, to running band vocals and maybe the kick drum through the PA. But you might still get by with a 30 watt amp, cranked and dirty, unmiked...if the drummer and bass player are hip to controlling their volume.

Larger clubs should have enough PA input channels, mics, stands, cables, stage snake channels and whatnot that it would be reasonable to expect all amps to be miked or DI'ed, plus multiple drum mics and vocals for everyone who sings. With everything miked, it's down to whether you can make enough stage volume for everyone. Careful positioning of your amp to tilt back, or raising it up on something, or aiming it across the stage, can get it so all members can hear it without cluttering up the monitor mix with guitar signal.

In short, try it. You'll know pretty quick if it's working for everyone or not. If it's the only sound/tone you've ever gotten used to, TRY EVERYTHING YOU CAN if decide to upgrade. There are many options and many possible things that will seduce you in the store but not seem so cool once you get them home. Always tell yourself this when you're gear-testing:

"If I have to ask myself if I like it, I probably don't like it. If I don't know that I like it within the first minute or two of playing through it, there's a good chance that I don't, or won't, like it."

Some gear takes some time and effort to tweak and get it to work but shouldn't be written off because of that. Like, say, a lot of Mesa amps. I have yet to bond with any Mesa amp, but a lot of people like them and they seem pretty sturdy...anyway, try everything you can get your hands on if you decide to upgrade. If you don't decide to upgrade, have fun with your exisiting rig and make every attempt to work in the phrase "my little Johnson" in conversations.

Quote from: Covers4Christ on May 09, 2012, 06:59:11 PM
Thanks so much for helpn out.

To start of, I dont have a power amp input jack, but I did try the cd input.

The thing that happened worries me, I played through both the input and cd input, both worked as if nothing is wrong..........

So all I have is it worked one night, I came in and it worked, cut the volume to tune, and it kept cutting in and out, when it cut back it it would distort the speaker terribly. Im sorry if that doesn't help......I almost wish it'd have problems....Im scared to rely on it, but I don't want to buy a new amp I can't afford yet when I don't have to.

I will say this.....I had a noise suppresor in the effects loop, I KNOW it wasn't the noise gate that did it, because it was turned off. but could it be a problem in the effects loop perhaps?

You do have a power amp input jack; you mentioned having a noise supressor in the effects loop. The power amp input is the return side of the effects loop.

Try plugging your guitar in there, or some other signal source, and see what happens.

I'm not the OP, but it wasn't really a project, at least based on the original question and yours...just plug your Marshall's line out/FX send/whatever into another amp's line in/FX return jack. The Marshall's preamp tone will now come through both amps' power sections and speakers: amp slaving.

It's definitely worth it if you like the master amp's tone but want more volume, and you have a suitable slave amp sitting around. I have had lots of fun doing this with a little Peavey amp I like as the master amp, slaved through various different amps.

I'm an electronics noob, but before you start surgery, have you tried reducing the input gain and cranking the output gain? And bringing all the EQ settings down/making the gain up at the output/post gain stage? That can reduce harsh fizziness and push the speaker harder...won't get you metal-type gain, but sometimes practice amps can sound pretty cool like that anyway.

The most important part of the sound to me is the initial few milliseconds. I'm un-healthily obsessed with those few milliseconds!

Cheers,
Bob.
[/quote]

I think I get that. I haven't played through a little Squier for a long time, but I've grown pretty partial to the fast attack of my little SS Peavey, as well as the sort of gritty edge it takes on when the gain is set right at the onset of distortion, or just past that point. It seems to help cut through a mix without being harsh, especially with single-coil pickups.

I have tube amps and like some things about them...the "bloom" and all that...but I miss that attack when it's not there! I've got a pair of little tube Valcos, one with a SS plug-in rectifier and one with a 5Y3 tube rectifier...I tend to like the feel of the SS one more, and that runs counter to a lot of pro-tube-amp thinking, I think.

JMF...are you saying "nope, keep looking?" Or were you attempting to link a specific item and the link didn't work out?

Thinking about this further, it seems that I might need a dual-pole three-position switch if I want on/dim/off; the switch I mentioned above might have been useful if I wanted to select between a couple of tweeters or something but not varying paths to the same tweeter, some attenuated, some not, etc.

How about this idea: a single-pole/three-position rotary switch, like this one:

http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/HS13Y/360-2559-ND/1046760

installed through the Acoustasonic's back panel, with a pointer knob or something on it, and wired so one position passes signal straight to the tweeter as per stock configuration...then another position incorporates a capacitor (and resistor? not clear on how this works yet) to "dim" the tweeter output, and the remaining terminal isn't wired to anything, so there's an "off" position too?


If that would work I could have one dim position, or more than one progressively more dimmed positions...right?

I'm one of those guys who tends to like the signal to be fairly clean, but loud enough to get close to the limits of what the speaker can reproduce...I like the coloration imposed by speakers at their limits. For electric guitar, anyway.

But I wonder how much Marshall was thinking about that in designing a Valvestate combo. And I REALLY wonder about that kind of thing in a Line 6 amp; I'd think you'd want dead-neutral amplification of preamp modeling magic in that case...?

Billy Gibbons has done some interview talking about Bixonic Expandoras, and I believe he might've done some a decade or so earlier about Scholz Rockmans. But yeah, who knows with that guy.

OP: If you've got the distortion maxed out and you don't feel you have enough sustain, I'd turn next to your guitar, and how your hands are contacting it. You have to have ringing strings on the guitar for the amp to amplify. Unplug your guitar and listen to the acoustic sustain. That's all you've got to work with, and it varies a lot from one instrument to another...but playing technique is a big factor too.

The only way the amp will affect the sustain is if you're playing loud enough for the sound waves coming out of the amp to continue exciting the strings. In a small space like a walk-in closet, a small practice amp might do this if it's cranked up and your guitar's lively enough. In a big space, you'd need more amp, or to be pretty close to--and probably facing--the amp, to get this effect.

I seem to recall Squier amps having a headphone out but no actual line out jack. Do you remember what method you used to obtain a line-level signal from that amp?