Solid State Guitar Amp Forum | DIY Guitar Amplifiers

Solid State Amplifiers => The Newcomer's Forum => Topic started by: saturated on July 26, 2025, 01:23:02 PM

Title: Single and double sided boards
Post by: saturated on July 26, 2025, 01:23:02 PM
I remember G1 talking about this and it didn't really sink in until now.

I've been practicing removing DIP from cadaver boards.

Last night I was in one helluva dogfight trying to remove some

IMG_20250726_120857984.jpg

I could get most of the stuff off of the bottom but it would still be stuck like chuck i made additional efforts like adding flux and new old kester but no joy. Also I used an iron and tried to bend all the legs to the center of the hole etc  :grr

It was so bad I just had to assume they glued the chip to the board...but they didn't.

Here's a top side shot

IMG_20250726_120918094.jpg


Now in contrast.....I got this IC off in two shakes of a lamb's tail

IMG_20250726_120818349.jpg

IMG_20250726_120844181.jpg

But look (and you guys know this of course) there are no pads? on top

IMG_20250726_120750380 (1).jpg

So I was kinda like oh yeah maybe that's what he was talking about  :trouble

Pretty ugly but I even tried flowing solder from the top of the board and it didn't help

When I pried with a screwdriver it broke  :grr

IMG_20250726_122014987.jpg

Also I remember chipquick being mentioned I will check it out

 xP

Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: saturated on July 26, 2025, 01:44:00 PM
Another example tried to remove another one

Got a bunch of stuff off of the bottom

IMG_20250726_123839320.jpg

Flip it over....not even loose rocking or anything

Firmly entrenched  :grr

IMG_20250726_123852519.jpg


Tldr

No way Jose  :grr



Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: Loudthud on July 27, 2025, 05:01:57 AM
Removing a chip from a double sided board is very difficult as you have discovered. It is not practical to re-use chips that have been removed from a PCB. What many people do is cut the leads where they enter the plastic body of the chip so you can remove them from the board one at a time and not damage the PCB.

What is usually required is a soldering iron that can heat the solder and suck it out of the hole. Such a tool requires maintenance every time you turn it on so it's not practical unless you are removing many chips.
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: J M Fahey on July 28, 2025, 11:03:22 AM
A solder sucker is not enough, it only removes 85-90% of solder, some always remains inside the hole.
Solder wick makes for a far better job.

Absolute best is Chipquick, a low melting point alloy which stays liquid for almost a minute, so you can melt *all* pads at once and pull chip safely with pliers.
Expensive but .....

Pros use hot air desoldering heads, which melt all at the same time.
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: tonyharker on July 28, 2025, 02:17:35 PM
This might be just as good https://www.amazon.co.uk/Low-melt-Solder-Degrees-50g/dp/B08YH9B7SF/ref=sr_1_19?ow+melting+point+solder%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-19
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: Jazz P Bass on July 28, 2025, 05:53:55 PM
A 'double sided' board has a plating from the top of the board, through the component hole & on to the other side.
The hole itself is actually copper plated to connect the circuit paths on the two sides.
The real trick, other than getting the component out, is to not do any damage to the plating.
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: galaxiex on July 28, 2025, 08:39:01 PM
"Plated thru hole" board.

There can be plated thru holes that do NOT join one board side circuit with another on the other board side.

Also don't forget "Vias" that have a plated thru hole but NO component lead.
Usually much smaller (tiny) than a hole for a component.
Their purpose to join one side circuit to the other side.
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: g1 on July 29, 2025, 10:28:49 AM
Quote from: galaxiex on July 28, 2025, 08:39:01 PMThere can be plated thru holes that do NOT join one board side circuit with another on the other board side.
I guess you mean the thru hole does not connect to any traces on one side of the board?
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: J M Fahey on July 29, 2025, 01:46:05 PM
Quote from: tonyharker on July 28, 2025, 02:17:35 PMThis might be just as good https://www.amazon.co.uk/Low-melt-Solder-Degrees-50g/dp/B08YH9B7SF/ref=sr_1_19?ow+melting+point+solder%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-19

Yes, that.

ChipQuik "should" be the same low temperature melting alloy.

It mixes with original solder:

Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: galaxiex on July 29, 2025, 10:21:51 PM
Quote from: g1 on July 29, 2025, 10:28:49 AM
Quote from: galaxiex on July 28, 2025, 08:39:01 PMThere can be plated thru holes that do NOT join one board side circuit with another on the other board side.
I guess you mean the thru hole does not connect to any traces on one side of the board?

Yes.
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: J M Fahey on July 30, 2025, 12:50:44 AM
Yes.

Plated through holes were invented to join both sides, vias do that too even if no part legs go through them, but some manufacturers (Mesa Boogie for one) use plated through holes even if there is no pad or track at the other side.
Why?

Simply because PTH gets filled with solder and works "almost" like a pin or hollow rivet inserted in the PCB body, giving much higher mechanical strength.

I find it funny when people despise gluing parts in place but trust "soldering" on a PCB.

Surprise surprise, pads and tracks are GLUED  :o  to the board surface by the impregnation varnish , say phenolic or Epoxy.
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: Tom Phillips on July 31, 2025, 01:12:20 PM
Also keep in mind that there are different quality levels of PC boards. The price point of musical instrument amplifiers only allow for a low to mid level PCB quality. The higher quality PCBs are easier to rework but still require good soldering tools and experience for best results.

In my experience, Mesa Boogie actually uses pretty good quality raw PCBs. The Mesa repair nightmares are mostly doe to other reasons.
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: Loudthud on July 31, 2025, 06:57:45 PM
One way I've seen to remove chips from a board is to heat the solder side of the board with a propane torch, then wack the board on a hard surface so the chip flys out before the solder cools. As you can imagine, this damages the board.

A similar way that works on small surface mount parts is to heat up a blob of solder big enough to cover the whole part and pull or pry the part off.
Title: Re: Single and double sided boards
Post by: J M Fahey on July 31, 2025, 09:28:15 PM
When I was a poor Student teen I used that "burn and slap" method.
Transistors were still kinda expensive (earlier I had even bought OC71 germanium transistors, individually boxed like a tube and more expensive than them) so for experimenting I bought surplus IBM mainframe boards, by the kilo, go figure, and burn/slapped them against a newspaper covered table.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/IBM_7030_Stretch_circuit_board.jpg)

Lots of mystery transistors and switching diodes, alto many .1uF decoupling ceramic capacitors.
The rest was iffy, only a few resistors had useful values.
In any case, everything helps.