5w boutique solid state amp?

[joecool85]

It seems there are quite a few boutique 2-5w tube amps out there, some even smaller.  Fender, Epiphone and Vox all have ~5w tube amps as well.  Think there is any market for a 5w all solid state amp with the same minimal controls the tube guys have?  Normally the controls on these little amps are just volume and tone, some just volume! 

I was thinking that maybe a small amp with volume, tone and gain on it could be interesting.  Probably use a TL071/2 for preamp into a TDA2002 poweramp section feeding either an 8" Jensen Mod or a 10" Eminence Legend depending on what size cabinet you wanted to make.

Thoughts?

[teemuk]

If you want my honest opinion...?

Unless you throw in something totally exeptional that separates the design from thousands of other low-power SS amps available commercially at prices less than $50 it isn't worth it.

The presence of tubes pretty much solely explain the market of low power minimal control tube amps. Vacuum tubes and an all vacuum tube design creates an image. An image sells. But IMHO, amps like Valve Junior and alike ain't really all that great and many low-power SS amps already mop floors with them. Even the puny Smokey gives it run for a money and at about ten times lower price. Yes, I'd rather buy a 20W Roland Cube (or something similar) than a Valve Junior or some of these other low power tube amps - despite how "boutiquely" they are built. Many don't share that view, though: a low power SS amp with almost non-existent controls isn't the kind of sexy design that would make markets drool.

Ask yourself seriously: How will a market take such design? How did the market take e.g. Gorilla amps, those little First Act amps, and all the other products that your amp would seem comparable to. Realize also that a great majority of guitar amplifier buying market will most certainly laugh at the concept of introducing a "boutique" solid-state amp that by its features seems like nothing but a cheap practice amp.

So, even if you can produce something that sounds way better than all those low power boutique tube amps doesn't really warrant anything: Folks won't have nearly as much interest to it since it's not a tube amp. Tone is - ironically - pretty much insignificant factor in this game because many will actually downright refuse to try and test a solid-state amp. A large majority of the markets wouldn't hear your amp anyway. Many would rather pile their money to buy a glorified image of a tube amp, and end up with a substandardly performing product, than spend the money to a less "sexy" product that actually could be better in all regards.

This is what you'd be facing.

Then the market who would consider solid-state as an option... Well... Even at the moment I could after a bit of searching buy a $20 - $100 (used) solid-state amp that would seriously sound better than majority of those boutique low power tube amps out there. And I could use that amp in both bedroom, practice, and at gigs. Why would I want to shell in much more cash to buy a "boutique" low power solid-state amp that, due to its low output power and lack of controls, practically doesn't blend in too well to all of that?

Why would I want something that likely only works moderately well in studio and at practicing, when I could buy something like a Peavey Bandit at about the same amount of money. Possibly much cheaper since we talk about boutique?

As said, the product would need to be stunningly exeptional.

I think TDA2020 + TL70x is a kinda broad description but it practically describes a lot of what's already in the markets. And they ain't really the kinds of amps to write home about. Can you really make a design that puts all those ~50$ SS amps to shame, in a manner that makes guys most certainly want to pile in all those extra bucks to something that seems like a puny practice amp? On top of that, can you also make it seem more worthwhile purchase than a tube amp? On top of that (again) does it also seem like a more worthwhile purchase than all the mid-level or professional SS products that you can buy from the used markets at laughably bargainable prices? ...If not, can you at least produce a design equal to its competitors (those cheap SS practice amps), most importantly: at equally competitive price? The way I see it, you'd pretty much have to outsource the production to China because at prices of manufacturing hand-built units there's no way you can compete.

[JHow]

...I think TDA2020 + TL70x is a kinda broad description but it practically describes a lot of what's already in the markets...

I was going to say, the concept sounds kind of like my Crate GTX-15 with a better speaker.

[teemuk]

^Exactly, except the Crate also has two channels, decent tone controls and DSP effect processor.

[joecool85]

So I guess in short, the answer is "no."  And "boutique" is probably totally out of the question for now.

What I was thinking was building something that would compete with, for instance, a Fender Champion 600.  I'm not planning on building anything myself, I was more just curious what the market might bear.  Tonally I think it could be done for sure, with competitive pricing not being an issue either (the Champion is made in China anyway, so this could be too).  The biggest issues with cheap SS amps are: crappy speakers and poor physical build quality (gluing things that should be nailed or screwed together, using pots that are only mounted by their pins etc).  If you upgrade the physical construction of the unit and put in a high quality speaker, the price would only go up a bit (which would be competitive with the Champion anyway) and the sound and playability would go way up.  It could be just as versatile as a basic 5w tube amp with the added benefit of being lighter (no output transformer) and more reliable (no changing of tubes).

The big thing would be how to market such an amp.  I think the term "Solid State" would need to stay out of it since there has been a social decision to write off any amps with that on them as junk.  Not sure what you would call it, but "tube" should stay out of the equation as well.  Maybe call it a "chip amp" or "built with integrated circuitry components"..."silicone amplification"?  Maybe market that it uses a certain transistor, IC or diode like tube amps do with tubes?  IE - "Contains 3 x 2n3904 transistors, 1 x TL072 and 1 x TDA2002".  You could use sockets to make the chips and transistors swappable.  Maybe you could start a whole revolution of the amp world!

Or maybe I'm just dreaming.

[substratus]

I think the question you have to ask first do amps like the Fender Champion 600 sell because they are good amps, or because they are some of the cheapest tube amps you can buy?  I'm not a fan of them at all, so in my opinion I'd have to say the latter, other peoples opinions may differ.

Being solid state would hurt it no matter how much better it sounded than it tube competition. The fact that in the used market you can get solid state amps that are better for around the same price or less is what will really kill it. There may be some room for new solid state amps in the market, but this is not it.

[gbono]

I can think up a few marketing buzz words for your project: use the phrase/words - "discrete", "field-effect transistor", "Blumlein - anything",etc, etc.
Or you can have my idea of a "solid state" stereo vibrato machine - you can build a "real vibrato" effect with "discrete" transistors. Nice exotic wood case and you're home and dry 

[J M Fahey]

Basically agree with what's posted above and add:
1) Champs and similar 50's and 60's amps were the cheap practice amps of the day
2) 2 to 5W makes sense because at "alone at home" levels (they can't be used to practice or jam with a drummer, no way) the power tube overdrives nicely without deafening you nor annoying (too much) the neighbours.
3) Minimal tone controls do not hurt because they are pre-distortion anyway, so they tend to get "washed out".
The original Champ with no tone controls and its later brothers with them, in actual use do not sound too different when overdriven.
4) A TDA2030 or any other chipamp when overdriven all by itself is not bad at all (just plug it into a good speaker, please) but lacks the bite of an overdriven power tube.
Just look at the waveforms !! , which in a single ended tube are even funkier, very unsymmetrical, spikey, you name it.
5) Since the distortion does not come from the power amp but must be somehow preamp-generated, you may make the SS poweramp any size you want.
6) "Clapton used a Champ to record Layla" ... or so the myth says.
Try to beat that !!!! 
7) In fact Pignoses , which match exactly the "2 to 5 W SS amp with only a volume control" description, were quite appreciated in the 70's ... because Frank Zappa and a host of other big names used them to record .... or so the myth says.
Hint: if you want to successfully produce your dream idea (which *technically* is possible) you should need to be able to claim that Metallica used it to record "Sandman" or some other similar Guitar-God endorsement.
Actual sound, as posted above, would not be *that* important.

[teemuk]

Funny that both are mentioned since Pignose was used (in addition to Champ) by Clapton on the Layla track too.

They still go for a nice amount of money since they are the legendary Pignose but in all honestly many modern amps simply are better in all regards. They just never gained the all-important classic status. Back in the early 1970's the guys whould have creamed their pants for something like a Roland Microcube and upon receiving one ditched the toy that was Pignose straight to carbage.

[joecool85]

So you don't think any guitarist would dig a high quality simple to use amp in the 5-10w range?  I mean, maybe not, but I was thinking they would.  I know there are small practice amps that are decent, but I'm talking something that could potentially be used for recording not just bedroom practice.

I may have to build one at some point and see how local guitarists take to it - now I'm curious!

[JHow]

You might find a niche by highlighting the durability/well-built nature of your 5W amp over the competition.  The small cheap amps seem to suffer from simple mechanical damage.   Your build quality versus thin pcbs, flimsy jacks, thin chassis material, etc.

[phatt]

Hi Joe,,,, add an output transformer and focus on *that* more than tubes and you would get some interest.
I did actually post a 2 or was it 3 BJT setup that ran into a Transformer but it did not get much interest.

The use of a OT greatly enhances the possibility of tube type sound,,if that is what you want.
By accident I found an odd ball small OT and ran a 2 transistor circuit that was quite stunning through a small 4 inch speaker.... seriously loud!!! The driver was a H voltage 220 case transistor from a TV set,,, have no idea what it was but with an output transformer it was very impressive.

The problem was the lack of bass,,,,adding no clean worth a mention?

The  original was just a BC547 into a high voltage TV BJT which drove a very small OTr.
input impedance was a horror,,,, you could only use the guitar on ten.

Just the same it shows that there is a possibility.

Be aware that Valves use High Voltage and I'm very sure that it helps to have a high Voltage to work from. 8|
My 2 cents worth.
Phil.

[armstrom]

In my opinion "boutique" SS amps need to fall into one of four categories to have any chance of being successful.

1) Super small/efficient: Give someone a battery powered amp that can put out a CLEAN 20W of power or so in a TINY package and you can appeal to a small market of buskers or people who want an amp integrated into a pedal board or something. This is likely only going to be useful for people who already achieve their tone entirely from pedals. To satisfy this there are already commercial products out there as well as some DIY projects (take a look at the community amp project over on diystompboxes, http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=89687.0 )

2) Lightweight, high powered amps. This is one area that seems to be neglected in the commercial space. Through careful selection of lightweight (neo?) speakers and a lightweight carbon fiber or fiberglass cabinet it should be possible to produce a high powered amp that is also very light weight. This is a combination that is simply not possible with tubes due to the iron required. I have plans to build such an amp in the future for a friend who doesn't like dragging his 80+ lb fender blackface twin around to gigs.

3) Modular designs. Again, something that isn't super popular in the commercial space, but if you can produce an amplifier that allows the customer to tailor the sound by swapping in different preamp modules, effects modules, or even power amp sections, then you could have a winner. Lets say a musician switches back and forth between electric and acoustic frequently during his/her act. They could in theory have a two channel amp where the channels are swappable. So maybe they would have a preamp voiced for bluesy electric guitar and another channel voiced for acoustic with more extensive EQ controls.. or whatever) Basically being able to swap module to mix and match your channels as you see fit.

4) You create something amazing. This is always the "gotcha" Every so often someone creates an amp that just has amazing tone and an affordable price. If you can pull this off with limited production runs you could easily have a boutique hit on your hands, but this is becoming more and more difficult as modeling amps become better and better and provide more control. It's getting easier now to buy a modeling amp/fx board that will allow you to dial in your own sound any way you like... that's tough to compete against with a boutique system.

[joecool85]

All very interesting thoughts from everyone here.  I'm glad that we're getting some good discussion going on the topic.  It's only a matter of time before we are going to have to switch to entirely solid state.  There just isn't a large enough market for tube manufacturers to keep making them indefinitely - at least not for a good price.

I'm also not convinced that a good solid state amp needs to be complex and/or filled with digital modeling etc.  I think that most of the tone can be had through a basic preamp, poweramp and a quality driver.  I could be wrong...but then again, I've had a lot of comments on the tone coming out of my little K20-X and it's about as basic as it gets.

[teemuk]

I have had a lot of people complement my Crate GX-15R too, and it is a good amp. The thing is, you can likely buy that or the very similar Dean Markley for $20 used. Who would want to spend much, much more money to about an equal amp, boutique or not?

We can ponder this question endlessly but the real answer is: build this boutique amp and see how well it actually sells and on what price, and how much interest it really generates.