Any thoughts on this speaker: http://www.thomann.de/pt/fane_sovereign_12_200.htm
(http://www.diale.org/img/sovereign-12-200.png)
Cheers.
Very good *bass* guitar speaker; useless for electric guitar.
Quote from: J M Fahey on June 30, 2014, 07:41:08 AM
Very good *bass* guitar speaker; useless for electric guitar.
Why do you say that? Can you elaborate on that?
Freq response goes up to 4kHz and has a 98dB sensitivity.
P.S. (edit)
It is not the first time a bass speaker is used with a guitar.
1) because even *they* say so? ;)
Ok, let´s add some extra physical proof:
2)
QuoteFreq response goes up to 4kHz and has a 98dB sensitivity.
Well, rather than taking that at face value, let´s read the small print:
"
Usable Frequency Range
-6dB 45 Hz - 4 kHz" which literally means it will have 98-6=92dB efficiency at said 4KHz ... DULL.
3) it is too flat !!! (that´s why it´s being sold as a PA speaker)
Look at its frequency curve ,
very smooth and "horizontal" from , say, 100Hz to 1500Hz , *excellent* for a mid bass speaker.
Let´s compare it to a generic, standard, very popular *guitar* specific speaker, the Eminence 1258 , which has similar cost, weight, magnet, frame, etc:
see attached curve below.
It is VERY far from flat, already offers a "pre-equalized response" (that´s why those minimal or no EQ amps such as a Champ, Tweed Deluxe, Marshall 18W, simplest Dr Z, Tiny Terror, etc. are usable at all: the speaker *already* provides a "guitar" E.Q.)
See that it has quite flat bass between, say, 120 and 700Hz at around 96/97dB, with a small dip at 250Hz (good, that´s where the Fender tone control has its own dip), a first 5 or 6 dB peak at 1KHz (it sends the guitar "forward" and a HUGE 11 to 12dB peak (reaching some 108 dB !!!) between 2500 and 3500Hz which are perceived as bright, metallic, punchy, biting, very forward sounding guitar sound.
4) there´s a physical justification for such a difference:
a) the Fane voice coil is too large: 50mm diameter vs. 38mm.
b) this one is terrible: the magnetic gap in both is same height: 8 mm , the Eminence voice coil (not shown in this datasheet but I repair them and have measured it) is some 9mm long; the Fane one is a whopping 15mm long which means it weighs 3 or 4 times as much as the other (longer coil also implies thicker wire to keep impedance same value) .
It also means that almost half of it lives *outside* the magnetic gap all the time.
So the Fane train has half the horsepower in its locomotive and twice the wagons ..... sluggish.
Fine in a woofer, of course.
c) the cone is too heavy (probably twice as thick, again fine in a woofer):
Fane states 44 grams moving mass, the Eminence does not state it here but it´s between 28 and 32 grams.
So in a nutshell, they are very different.
Both are excellent, but to each its own.
Yes, *some* "woofers" have been successfully used for guitar, but those are very special cases.
EVM15L comes to mind: it has a very light and efficient *aluminum* voice coil (99% speakers out there use far heavier copper), it has a thin (and light) for its size paper cone, it´s curvilinear which makes it rigid yet saves weight, if it were a straight cone (as in most speakers) it would need to be twice as thick to stay rigid, and has a monster magnet to push everything fast.
JBL´s the same: even bigger magnets, aluminum VC, light curvilinear cone, etc.
And the old 15" Jensens, (P15N), historically used both in Guitar and Bass amps , weren´t *real* woofers but "larger guitar speakers" , with thin paper edge cones, same voice coil and magnet as the speaker used in, say, a Twin Reverb , etc. (P12N).
Problem is that if you test your speaker in a showroom or alone at home it may sound good, but when the drummer (or another guitar player) starts playing ... you disappear :(
Thanks for your instructive response.
I was looking for a speaker with a more flat frequency response (than the Eminence 1258 that you mention). Any recommendations? Thanks.
P.S.
I still have the cab to adapt the frequency response of "speaker + enclosure", and the EQ of the amp.
Just for your own reference, download and check Eminence datasheets.
Simply because they are chock full of information.
Jensen Italy are also quite good, and Celestions show very little .... they probably don´t want to spill the beans ;)
WGS, Scumback, Weber, etc. , provide no data at all.
Compare curves and it will be very interesting.
There are flatter "guitar" Eminences, I guess one of them is meant for "modeling" amps , so it was made quite neutral.
They also have some flat but efficient PA ones, which work well for guitar, they are those which I nickname the "Greek" Eminences (Alpha, Beta, Kappa, etc.).
Hi tca,
Can I suggest that you state what Amplifier is going to drive the speaker and better still what kind of music style you wish to capture. 8|
And Just in case you missed it, J M Fahey makes Band and large venue Sound Equipment.
It's his Job to understand speakers. :dbtu:
Oh and consider this; I do not know of any other manufacturer that makes it's Own in-house Speakers from scratch? Fahey Amps is the only one as far as I know.
So in other words you are getting the best advice from someone who seriously KNOWS what they speak-er About. (bad pun)
Why do you think I became a member here? Serious talent inside these pages.
You won't get this kind of info from silly magazines which are just advertorials mostly.
Phil.
Peavey makes makes some of their speakers in house.
I think I'll go for a Eminence Delta Pro-12A (dark red) or Eminence Kappa-12A (red).
(http://www.diale.org/img/eminence_d-k.png)
*edit*
Corrected the ref of the Eminence Kappa-12A speaker.
Quote from: Enzo on July 01, 2014, 04:52:48 AM
Peavey makes makes some of their speakers in house.
Opps,, Thanks Enzo,,Yep I forgot that one. :-[
They do indeed make some in-house but most of the others don't.
Phil.
Quote from: tca on July 01, 2014, 05:07:02 AM
I think I'll go for a Eminence Delta Pro-12A (dark red) or Eminence Kappa-12A (red).
(http://www.diale.org/img/eminence_d-k.png)
*edit*
Corrected the ref of the Eminence Kappa-12A speaker.
Just going on the charts,
If it were Me and my gear and my style of music,, Kappa-12A.
BUT YMMV.
Phil.
Quote from: phatt on July 02, 2014, 03:02:50 AM
Just going on the charts,
If it were Me and my gear and my style of music,, Kappa-12A.
BUT YMMV.
Phil.
The differences would be subtle.
FWIW yesterday the guy with the 200 Ton press (or was it 240 Ton?) gave me 73 just stamped 12" speaker frames.
Now I'm waiting for a rented van to carry them to the shop which will Zinc plate them .
Fresh out of the press parts are made out of cold rolled steel 18 gauge and come "naked" (bare iron) , liberally sprinkled with thick engine oil, very messy.
So they must first be boiled in Industrial strength detergent (not exactly what you use in your dishwasher) , then in a 5% acid bath which eats all rust away (even the invisible one) and then zinc plated proper.
Once I went as far as building my own zinc plating bath :loco :duh but after successfully using it once, I tore it down .
***All*** baths carry CYANIDE which apparently is best in removing surface contamination, promoting metal adhesion, etc.
NO THANKS.
Quote from: J M Faheythe 200 Ton press (or was it 240 Ton?)
Back when
Awwstra-ya had some secondary industry I used to service and modify this sort of stuff. Biggest one was a Bliss 650 tonne stretch-draw with a floor level trapping space as big as a room - a nightmare to optically guard (in those days). We also did optical die protectors and jam detectors.
Used to do my own photo processing in a home darkroom but I tend to avoid chemistry wherever possible these days (happy I survived what I did, etching, plating, electrochemistry, blah).
Well, we Ozzies and Argies have MANY points in common (as you already noticed ;) ) and one of them is having had quite a reasonable industry backbone.
I am using what remains of ours: factories with some heavy and high quality machinery ... 70's vintage :(
I stamp speaker parts renting time at small car parts factories, which typically used to have 30 to 60 people working full time and now barely have 3 or 4 "whiteheads" who resist retirement (or illegally keep working after official retirement) churning out whatever they can to get some extra money.
Generally making aftermarket car replacement parts to keep old cars running (you know we also have quite a few Ford Falcons still on the streets :) )
Unfortunately when a machine breaks, sometimes it stays unrepaired :(
Oh well.
Sorry to hear, Yes you do need a big press to stamp out steel plate.
Your electroplating comment took me back many years and pricked my memory.
Now as far as that cleaning trick goes ,, Why cyanide?
In my early days of Electroplating (first job in fact) We used to fill an old Vat with strong Caustic solution and just reverse the polarity on the probes and leave it for a good hour or so.
This cleans (no make that strips) ALL foreign matter from the surface of the metal before plating.
It also made use of all the old worn out electrodes from the nickel/chrome Vats. 8)
just a thought?
Caustic Soda although still corrosive is a lot safer than Cyanide. :trouble
Hey with a big enough Vat you could clean all those old Falcon bodies and make them all brand new again. ;)
Phil.
You bet. :)
Problem is cyanide was for ages the standard bath and *still* is the benchmark, specially for surface brightness.
Fom one electroplating page:
QuoteThe oldest solutions used sodium cyanide to complex the zinc. There deposits were very good. The brightening addition agents were capable of producing very bright land attractive zinc coatings. There deposits were relatively easy to chromate. Clear bright chromates were possible light yellow and dark yellow chromates provided significant corrosion protection. Zinc plating could support lubricants and were used for fasteners of all sorts. When cyanide solutions lost favor, alkaline non-cyanide solutions were developed