Diago LS01 - 5w 9v amp?

[J M Fahey]

Dear James/Diago.
Thanks a lot for answering in such detail.
We are learning things we only barely imagined.
Just one curiosity though (although maybe you mistyped or just made a *very* quick mental calculation): are you saying you are paying 0.06U$ freight for a 600 gram product?
Which would mean 0.1u$ per Kilogram or 100U$ per Ton, (conventionally equivalent to around 4 cubic meters) or around 1500U$ per full 40' container.
Seems too low to me.
Do you ship full containers?
Or is it consolidated cargo? (in which case it would be more expensive).
I don't get it.
Thanks a lot.

[phatt]

Hi Diago,
            Thanks for the input.
You have done your home work well. The right bass rolloff and the right top end rolloff.
A good basic R/R amplifier that could easy be the building block for other great sounds. :tu:

If you want other options try my PhAbbTone circuit in front for those other in between tones. winky. (Search my postings for the schemo)

As to comments good or bad there are many minds here and they all have different ideas about how it should sound.

Our wonderful member (J M Fahey) put it well a while back basically commenting that "Technicians all have there own favorite circuit ideas and concepts and tend to stay with those." I tend to agree
I would simply add;
As to which is better (or technically correct) becomes irrelevant as long as it does the job then buyers do not care if it's technically right,, as long as it sounds good to them. (maybe add reliable to that)

As to cloning, Don't worry about it as you have the Name and the rights and yours is original so anything else is never able to make that claim. :trouble
(Unless they are daffed enough to try and use Your Name on the front ,, in which case they are dead sure to loose out) :duh

As to the circuit Lets face it, it is very hard to make something that is totally original in Audio Electronics as most stuff comes under prior knowledge anyway and if you search there is a good chance someone has built something very similar at one time. So if someone back engineers your invention (and tries to market it) I doubt it will impact as much as some some claim.
If anything it may well promote the Genuine product. 8|

Let's face it; The reason Strat's are so pricy is partly due to the fact that 9 out of ten of them on the showroom floor are copy's And of course most buyers want a real one don't they? Even though the copy maybe identical,, or in some cases better. lol.

Re the claimed +15/-30db tone control;
My guess, it's a classic HiZ tone circuit in front of distortion.
(and BTW, I'm not asking for you to divulge the circuit.)

My Passive PhAbbTone shows a minus ~30dB @400Hz notch, (very obvious while driving low gain clean) yet when distortion is cranked full the tone controls function with less obvious effect.

Which of course is EXACTLY what happens with old Valve circuits from a distant past. Add that to an already limited band response and it sounds rich and fat and sweet, (choice of speaker helps). Note that 6 inch drivers in small combos will ALWAYS have much higher frequency response and almost no amount of circuit tweaking will fix the excess high frequency output.

Active tone setups don't soften with loading like those old circuits and as a lot of modern gear has too much frequency bandwidth to start with and then add the active tone (which DOES NOT soften at high gain) then the result is often very harsh and No amount of tweaking will tame the beast.
I don't think stomp box builders realize that a lot of the magic of those famous distorted sounds has as much to do with the quirks of passive tone shaping as the distortion itself. 

Anyway,,No matter which way you did it, Your Amp is proof that limited bandwidth makes for a better sound (or shall I say useable)

I find your comments on Far east factories interesting.

I have no doubt they produce quality products BUT my gripe in not so much where something is made but the components themselves is at the core of the issue.

Example;
I have Plastic 6.5 sockets here in my draw made back in the 1950's

You can hit these with a hammer then reshape them back to original and they still work.

In the last Few years I've had several small Amps with 6.5 Sockets that have cracked clean off from stress or impact. (Brittle plastic)

The plastic is **OBviously** nowhere near the standard of older production components.

Plastic is not my field but blind Freddy can see that the quality of components has gone down the drain pipe and this is one of the reasons I erk at far east gear.
FWIW, I actually use a $150 Copy Strat Which I prefer to the real one in the back room.
Yes I play Live venues.
My 2 cents worth.

Cheers from a mad hobby geek from Australia, Phil.

[maloushe]

Joe, Juan, everyone,

Again, you're welcome.  I don't feel like an outsider here, so I'm happy to share my experiences.

Joe, regarding location of manufacture, I used to think the same - supporting local jobs in manufacturing is a great thing right?  The thing is that we *do* provide local jobs and pay local taxes (albeit in the UK and not the USA).  It's just that our jobs are in engineering and marketing, not in manufacturing.  I'd pose the notion that we're providing a similar number, but better jobs than we could if we were manufacturing in the UK (we'd probably have to set-up our own manufacturing, and would not be able to fund as much product development), and we're definitely paying more employment and corporation tax doing it this way too.  Having no manufacturing jobs allows us to have more engineering jobs.

Dyson (the vacuum company) here in the UK used to have an injection moulding and assembly line here in the UK.  They laid off about 800 people, and moved the production to Malaysia and the media annihilated them for it.  What the media never reported was that over the next 2 years they were able to hire 1,200 more people, mostly in engineering.  So the move actually improved competitiveness, increased the number of (better) jobs, and allowed the company to develop more products more rapidly.  How can that be a bad thing?  Sure, the lower paid assembly workers lost their jobs, but difficult decisions have to be made sometimes, and I support the concept in the name of progress.

Does that seem reasonable?  It seems common to presume that the manufacturing stage of any product is one that should be preserved, but not many folks speak of the other jobs.  Consider that the *manufacturing* of pedal boards, power supplies and guitar amps is not exactly super high tech, then the manufacturing jobs are also quite basic.  Why should it be so important that we create these specific kinds of jobs in the UK?  If that's the case, should we be also setting up our own local IC fabbing plant?  These ideas make no sense to me at all.

If we were making highly specialised aerospace or military goods, then I would agree that such manufacturing activities are ones that *do* add value, and they should be developed and supported locally.

Do you follow my thoughts on that?

I agree that quality is absolutely the reason to buy, and that in the past, the quality has tended to be better from the West.  However, it's a totally bogus notion these days.  Consider that iPhone or any Apple product?  Could it be manufactured in the West any better?  Absolutely not.  My experience with China is that if you want crap, you can have it, and if you want great quality you can have that too.  You just have to specify it and be prepared to pay for it.

I agree with your points on marketing; it's not meant to compete with cheap solid state combos.  It's a great sounding backup / practice tool that's portable.  If you have a cab at your destination, then you just need to take a guitar and pedal board with you.  Maybe that's not clear from our marketing... Yes, a second product would be in addition to the LS01.

Joe, from reading your posts over the past few years, you're definitely an engineer.  Even if you're not doing it professionally, or don't have professional qualifications, you're still an engineer...it's in your blood!

Juan, regarding the shipping, I'll expand.  Firstly, I was talking about the "freight" element of the overall shipping cost only, which is literally the charge for getting the ship from Guangzhou, China to Felixstowe, UK; this does not include loading fees, taxes, unloading fees, dock fees or anything else.  The way to calculate it is to take the cost of a CIF shipment and subtract the cost of an identical FOB shipment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms.

Typically that cost would be in the region of $300USD for a 20' container which will hold 38 cubic metres (CBM).  For sea shipping the driving factor is usually volume, not weight.  Air shipments are usually the other way round, but it depends on the goods.  A 20' container would fit about 17,000 pieces of LS, including packaging.  So shipping FCL gives a freight cost of 1.8 US cents each....  We don't often send full containers (FCL) (yet!), so our costs are much higher by consolidation or less than container loads (LCL).

The freight element of shipping is one of the smallest components.  As Juan says, once you add all the other elements to get the goods from the factory, to the port, pay customs charges, port charges, the reverse at the other end, and additional import and value added taxes, the cost can be in the region of an order of magnitude higher.

Does that clarify?

:tu:

James @ Diago.

[maloushe]

Phil, interesting post.  I'll come back to you later.  Work to do now...

James.

[joecool85]

James, I still think pushing it as a high quality rockin' 5w head is more important than pushing its portability.  I would be surprised if most people would shell out good money for that kind of portability, but I KNOW they will pay MUCH more for "tone".  If this could be used as a recording/studio amp, even just for the overdriven tracks, that would be a HUGE seller I think.  Most studios have plenty of speakers/cabs hanging around, so to go record all you would need is your guitar and pedal board.  No bringing big heavy 2 x 12 tube combos along.

Regardless, it's a very interesting product and I apologize for being so quick to erroneously judge it earlier on.

Also, while I don't necessarily agree with production in the Middle East, I do appreciate your views and they make for great discussion.  I should note that for a year after I graduated I worked at a local shoe manufacturing plant.  I wasn't using my degree, but it was a good honest decent paying job, I think this might also be part of my bias.

[maloushe]

Phil,

I'll check out your PhAbbTone circuit.

I agree with your sentiments of working the way we best know how - experience with one kind of technology / topology certainly drew me our way.  The circuit is by no means particularly original; it's not at all.  The key was careful design, listening and tweaking to make it sound as good as possible.  The innovation was the basic concept - a great sounding guitar amp head in a pedal sized enclosure.

The EHX Caliber 22 and Magnum 44 appeared after we had started development of the LS, and they're not terribly good guitar amps.  They do overdrive, but not particularly in a guitar amp kind of way.  The TI Class-D IC's that they use are a nice concept, but I wanted the LS to specifically work from a standard 9V DC adaptor.  We could take the higher power approach and supply a proprietary higher voltage adaptor?

To your EQ and speaker comments....yes, absolutely!  The LS has a ton of EQ in the first few op-amp stages. Shape -> Gain -> Shape -> Gain etc.  The final stage is the 2 band Baxendall before it goes into the output TDA7240A, which is overdriven somewhat too at many signal levels/settings.

Yes; I agree 100% on your component thoughts, it's much more important than the assembly.  The key is to specify the best components, and have samples sent to the UK for testing before approval.  In the case of jacks - I had about 20-30 different types from different factories sent over to test them.  A lot of the cheaper ones have fillers in the plastic which lowers the cost, but makes them brittle.  Specification and testing  needs a close eye.  Our project manager in China is an experienced component buyer so that helps too.

Joe; very interesting point on the marketing.  Maybe we didn't approach it right, what you say makes perfect sense.  I was hoping that people would work out their own use for it, but I realise that's not terribly sharp marketing.  It's funny because by far the most emails we've had about it is about using it with a DI box / mixing desk.  Obviously, it's not appropriate to do that, but it shows that there are a ton of people who want to DI, but that don't want to use a POD or similar DSP unit, and still want to use their pedal boards - they want something to replace the amp, cab and microphone, not just the amp.  Does that sound interesting to you?

Indeed, it can be used as a recording amp, but I thought a lot of recording purists are not driven by portability - in a studio you can have the biggest most unreliable thing (that seems to be something that's seen as a good thing to some!), so long as it has tubes, mojo and some kind of history and character.  I felt that a solid state amp in a tiny box could never compete with that from a marketing point of view, however good it sounds.

Don't worry about the early judgements, or any later ones.  We all have our own ideas and opinions and I like to discuss with people like you guys who have brains and can discuss their opinions, not just simply state them.

I appreciate your views on manufacturing too; it's an emotive subject.  I studied manufacturing engineering, it's something I've long been passionate about.  I'm a big advocate of smart manufacturing; Leo Fender reduced the cost of an electric guitar by a factor of about 10, by simplifying the design for easy manufacturing.  Nitro cellulose was used because it did the job, was easy to get hold of and cheap, due to the local automotive manufacturing usage.  That's my kind of engineering - bringing step change to a field, and making activities that were previously the preserve of the rich, to everyone.

I too used to work in a small manufacturing business (industrial bakery machinery), but I felt that they placed too much emphasis on the manufacturing and not enough on the design.  They ended up way behind the competition, because they were bound by the machinery that they had invested in.  I guess there's no right an wrong answer, but I know which works best for us.

Anyway, enough of that.  I have an idea.  Who would be interested in helping us develop a / some products?  Not just the detail design work, but the concept and development too.  I'm sure we could work out a method of reward.  I know a lot of you guys *really* know your stuff, much more so than I do.  I'm looking for folks to help us with new product development, and maybe here's one of the best places to look?!

How about it?

:tu:

James.

[J M Fahey]

@ James/Diago.
Thanks a lot for answering and sharing.
Best wishes and ..... sell a lot !!!!!!!

[joecool85]

James, I'm always up for helping develop different projects/ideas.  I was a New Media major at the University of Maine and collaboration is the name of the game there.  Go ahead and PM me and we can exchange pertinent contact info and start bouncing ideas.

[maloushe]

Juan, did the shipping figures make sense?

Joe, I'll PM you...

[J M Fahey]

Yes, thanks.
Now I see that you split those costs that way specifically to have an idea of the *fuel* cost , to compare that to "driving to your local Music Shop".
The total cost is way higher, considering all other factors.
I'm paying U$300 per cubic meter, consolidated cargo, exporting my guitar speakers for the *way* shorter distance from Argentina to Brazil.
It computes to around U$1.40/Kg so I was shocked by the cost you initially posted.
Of course my cost includes *everything*, except Brazilian Import duties.
And drops to U$500 total per 3 cubic meters .... still way higher than yours.
Thanks again.

[maloushe]

Juan,

What do you get exactly for your USD300?  Is it from your door to the customer's door, DDU?  As you can probably work out from the freight/fuel costs, the sea distance is insignificant to the costs.  What kind of volumes do you send per shipment?

Speakers?....tell me more!

James.

[J M Fahey]

Hi James/Diago.
Given the particular case that we are in neighbouring Countries, I'm using ground (truck) transport, for the very good reason that shipping would deliver goods to Santos (São Paulo's seaport) 30 miles away from the City, while I can drop the pallet with the speakers 2 blocks away from my Shop and my Brazilian partner receives them in a warehouse within the City.
Door to door takes 4/5 days while by sea it can take up to 15.
Still I was interested in the costs you mentioned because Sea Transport is the ruler by which all others get measured.
I make my own Guitar Speakers for over 30 years now, they sound good (think Eminence/Jensen/Celestion) and thanks God Brazilian ones are *terrible*.
They have huge modern Factories but they are centered in Car type ones, the exact opposite to Guitar ones.
And imports pay heavy tariff.
Plus Chinese ones have been "punished" because dumping was proved in Court and carry a stiff fixed surcharge.
While I, being Argentine, pay no Import duties there.
As you see, situation is complex and depends more on Politics than on actual Sound or Economics .
Oh well !!!

[maloushe]

Hi Juan,

It's a very interesting story.  I'm aware that many South American countries have high import taxes, although I don't know the details.  I guess it makes international trade very difficult.  We don't sell into any South American countries yet because our volumes are not yet big enough to make it commercially viable.

OK; since you're shipping by land/truck, then the rules and charges are all very different.  For sea shipping, much of the cost is in customs and port charges.  For land transport, much of the cost will be in the transport itself, since a truck is nowhere near as efficient as a large container ship.  2,000km by road will cost a lot in fuel, driver costs, depreciation of the truck and possibly road tolls if they apply.  Also in your case, customs and tax charges may well be high.

Do you sell your speakers internationally?

James.

[J M Fahey]

You are right, the cost structure is different but in practical terms , in this particular case prices were roughly the same (all things considered) and paperwork is much simpler by land.
I'm starting small, 50 or 100 speaker shipments.
If things go better yes, probably sea shipping will be the best option.
Brazil is the only interesting market for me: 200 million people (vs. our 40 million Argentines), *tariff protected market*, free admission for my stuff, plus I have Brazilian Residence and papers and I'm very used to the muddy way business is run here.
Let me tell you that if your amp becomes a success in Brazil, it WILL be copied in no time.
Just as a curiosity, have a look at their most sold amps:
a JCM900/JCM2000 clone :

a Gallien Krueger 800RB bass amp clone:

a Mesa Boogie V-Twin pedal clone:

they do not only copy the schematic, but the looks and even the model name.
Oh well.

[maloushe]

Hi Juan,

OK, that makes sense for shipping and Brazil being your only interesting market.  Quite a lot of smaller, specialist guitar speaker builders have had some good success, people like Ted Weber in the USA and even Fane in the UK.

I think with the right product and exposure there would be a good market in the USA and Europe.

I have come across Meteoro before, but never paid them much attention.  I didn't realise that they copied everything on the product and also so many different products.  I guess there's not much to protect copying sometimes.

:tu:

James.