Solid State Guitar Amp Forum | DIY Guitar Amplifiers

Solid State Amplifiers => Amplifier Discussion => Topic started by: Zappacat on August 03, 2009, 12:54:25 AM

Title: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: Zappacat on August 03, 2009, 12:54:25 AM
How do I find information on the following power transformers taken from different line6 spider III amps?  ON-TECH appears to be the manufacturer but the only match for the product numbers on google yield pages that are in chinese and they error out when trying to get google to translate.  Does anyone have a resource for ON-TECH that is written in English?

Line6 spider III 15 has these numbers stamped in the metal
1X-5730-04H0 and these numbers printed 0826

Line6 spider III 30 has these numbers stamped in the metal
1X-6636-02H0 and these numbers printed 0814

I suspect the power transformer is bad in the 30 watt amp.  It has a 5 pin connector going to the main board.  Measured AC voltage levels are as follows:

red1 = 4.6
red2 = 2.4
blue1 = 7.3
black = 1.6
blue2 = 4.4

Any help greatly appreciated.


Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: phatt on August 03, 2009, 09:01:54 AM
I assume you have the Transformer wires *OFF* the main board when you took those measurements?

Maybe Try doing a Resistive reading on both the Primary and the Secondaries.
(all power off of course and unplugged from wall sockets)
My guess is if the tranny is stuffed then the Primary will be open circuit and it would read a very high ohms or wavering around ( ie, not able to get a stable reading).

Also read the primary from the active pins on the wall plug,, you never know the cord? the fuse holder? the main power switch?  all possible candidates for OC in the primary.
Some modern Tr's come with a thermal link inside the winding another point of OC failure.

Others here will be more qualified to comment as it's only a hobby for me.
Hope it helps. Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: Zappacat on August 03, 2009, 10:02:29 AM
Quote from: phatt on August 03, 2009, 09:01:54 AM
I assume you have the Transformer wires *OFF* the main board when you took those measurements?

Maybe Try doing a Resistive reading on both the Primary and the Secondaries.
(all power off of course and unplugged from wall sockets)
My guess is if the tranny is stuffed then the Primary will be open circuit and it would read a very high ohms or wavering around ( ie, not able to get a stable reading).

Also read the primary from the active pins on the wall plug,, you never know the cord? the fuse holder? the main power switch?  all possible candidates for OC in the primary.
Some modern Tr's come with a thermal link inside the winding another point of OC failure.

Others here will be more qualified to comment as it's only a hobby for me.
Hope it helps. Phil.
Yes, I had the transformer unplugged frrom the circuit board when taking the readings.

What exactly is meant by "OC failure"?

So "doing a Resistive reading on both the Primary and the Secondaries"  entails measuring the resistance from each of the 5 wires I mentioned to what connection?

Thanks Phil!
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: phatt on August 03, 2009, 10:43:34 AM
Sorry Zappacat,,, OC= open circuit.

The 5 wires you tested are Likely the *secondary windings only*.
There will be at least another TWO Wires,, often these exit from another side of the winding stack but not always.
Edit; adding just follow the *Mains cord* through to the transformer.

With my limited understaning I think the very low voltage reading on the secondary *Maybe* indicitive of a primary failure, So I'd check that out first via a resistive reading of the primary winding.

If you cant establish the primary wires inside the chassis then as I mentioned take the reading from the *Mains Lead* itself.
Put your meter on ohms,, connect to both AC plug pins (not the earth pin) Now switch the power switch to the *On* position.
You should get a stable low ohms reading.
Maybe around 50/100 ohms,, depends greatly on the VA rating.  Generally really big transformers have greater current ability and they tend to have a lower reading due to the heavier gauge windings.

If the reading is high ,, like 10k ohms or the reading fluctuates a lot then the primary is proly stuffed.
And while you have the power socket in your hand check the continuity of the *Earth Pin* while you're there. you should see 1 ohm or there abouts from Earth Pin to Amplifier Chassis.
Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: phatt on August 03, 2009, 11:24:26 AM
Just adding,
Logic suggests that the the black wire would be the CT (center tap)  and highest voltage on the secondary would be between the two *Red Wires* but it could be the two Blues.

You can work out which ones by following the circuit traces from the input pins across to the Bridge rectifier and big filter caps.

You can also get some idea of what DC voltage the amp works on just by reading the working voltage written on the Main Electrolitic Caps. The caps will always be rated at a slightly higher voltage than the amp uses. ie, with a pair 50 volt caps the working voltage will be somewhere between 37VDC to 45VDC. So divide by 1.4 to get a rough idea of the AC that you would expect to read at the AC secondary terminals.
Lets say the secondary is a 56VAC CT (same as 28/0/28) ..
Then you would be seeing a voltage of 56VAC between the two red wires,,, or 28VAC between one of the Red and the Common Black wire.
Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on August 03, 2009, 12:24:42 PM
Hi Zappacat, you should start learning the language of the future: Chinese.
I´m starting to do so.
Meanwhile: the 1X-5730-04H0 is :
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:15.2VAC x 2/7.
The black wire is most certainly the center tap; measure its continuity to the blue and red wires; the ones connected to black are2x15VAC and the ones isolated from it are 7VAC if I understand it right.
I understand that there are *other* 3 wires , of which 2 are connected to the power switch and fuse,  one being the neutral and the other the hot 120V tap, with an extra unused 100V tap.
Just in case, post a clear picture or two.
The 1X-6636-02H0 is:
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:16.3VAC x 2/7.
They both are made by Jetronics and cost Yen 17 and 27 respectively.
The 0814 code means Year2008, Week 14 (mid March).
Considering all industry in the world is being moved to China, we should start learning how to plant soy or rice and rise cattle.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: Zappacat on August 17, 2009, 08:05:00 PM
Quote from: J M Fahey on August 03, 2009, 12:24:42 PM
Hi Zappacat, you should start learning the language of the future: Chinese.
I´m starting to do so.
Meanwhile: the 1X-5730-04H0 is :
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:15.2VAC x 2/7.
The black wire is most certainly the center tap; measure its continuity to the blue and red wires; the ones connected to black are2x15VAC and the ones isolated from it are 7VAC if I understand it right.
I understand that there are *other* 3 wires , of which 2 are connected to the power switch and fuse,  one being the neutral and the other the hot 120V tap, with an extra unused 100V tap.
Just in case, post a clear picture or two.
The 1X-6636-02H0 is:
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:16.3VAC x 2/7.
They both are made by Jetronics and cost Yen 17 and 27 respectively.
The 0814 code means Year2008, Week 14 (mid March).
Considering all industry in the world is being moved to China, we should start learning how to plant soy or rice and rise cattle.
Good luck.
Thanks a lot for that information.  The blue wires are connected to the black.  The red ones are not.  Where did you get that information?  It's what I was looking for and was unable to find.  Am I correct in assuming that I should be reading 15VAC on each blue wire and 7VAC on the red ones assuming the power supply is working properly?  What should the black wire measure in voltage?  Where can i order one of these power supplies?  Thanks very much for your help JM I really appreciate it.

I just measured the AC pin voltages and got:

blue    3.9
black   1.6
blue    6.8
red     2.2
red     4.5

Is it possible to conclude from this that the transformer is shot or do I actually need to have the transformer hooked up to the board with the unit powered on to read the transformer voltage outputs accurately?
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on August 17, 2009, 09:47:47 PM
Hi Zappacat.
The page of the Chinese supplier is: http://www.kwanwing.com:81/Product/?page=64&sortid=
According to the schematic and what you have, the connector pinout should be:1/2/3/4/5-->blue/black/blue/red/red and you should read
a)AC volts relative to ground: 1/2/3-->15/0/15
b)AC volts relative to each other, not to ground: from 4 to 5 : 7 V
On the primary side you have 3 wires, only 2 are connected to 120V AC , the 3rd unconnected one is the 100V tap.
Unless it smokes/sparks or is open, I don't think you have a transformer problem.
What are the symptoms?.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: Zappacat on August 17, 2009, 10:14:50 PM
Quote from: J M Fahey on August 17, 2009, 09:47:47 PM
Hi Zappacat.
The page of the Chinese supplier is: http://www.kwanwing.com:81/Product/?page=64&sortid=
According to the schematic and what you have, the connector pinout should be:1/2/3/4/5-->blue/black/blue/red/red and you should read
a)AC volts relative to ground: 1/2/3-->15/0/15
b)AC volts relative to each other, not to ground: from 4 to 5 : 7 V
On the primary side you have 3 wires, only 2 are connected to 120V AC , the 3rd unconnected one is the 100V tap.
Unless it smokes/sparks or is open, I don't think you have a transformer problem.
What are the symptoms?.
I added my voltage readings in the previous post.  Does the amp need to be on with the power supply connected to the circuit board in order for me to get accurate transformer voltage readings?

I just measured the AC pin voltages and got:

blue    3.9
black   1.6
blue    6.8
red     2.2
red     4.5

Do you think the transformer is shot?  When I power the amp on and off I can hear the faint audio cut noise that an amp makes when turning on and off.  It's very soft but it's there.  None of the control lights come on and and controls seem to be unresponsive.  If I have it turned on and crank the volume you still get not output.  No hiss or anything.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: phatt on August 18, 2009, 09:44:21 AM
Hi Zappacat, still struggling with it,, oh dear Hopefully I won't add to the confusion.
JMFahey has explained it well but there maybe some confusion about ground.
The common or ground if you like is the CT (Center Tap) of the 15/0/15 winding.

So *0* in a 15/0/15 secondary is *Common* to the Two 15 windings.
So using the same explaination as Fahey, taps 1/2/3 equal 15/0/15
In most amp circuits the *Common* CT becomes the *Ground* of a split supply.
Another way to express the same winding would be to say; 30 volt CT.
Or a single 30volt winding with a Cent Tap.

You should set your DMM to read AC Volts and be able to get a reading of ~30 VAC between tap 1 and 3.
Which should also give you ~15VAC between (1 and 2) or (3 and 2).

If you are doing everything right and you can only get low readings as you have shown then it's probably blown.

The faint click or whatever is likely due to the couple of volts generated via magnetic coupling, even though the wire has gone open circuit it still induces a small voltage due to magnetic coupling of what is left of the windings but nowhere near enough to power up.
ie, a small voltage with no current capability hence the power indicator light won't even light up.

No you don't need the transformer connected to the circuit board to get the AC readings of the transformer.
Sound like a new one is needed. Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: Zappacat on August 18, 2009, 12:13:20 PM
Quote from: J M Fahey on August 17, 2009, 09:47:47 PM
Hi Zappacat.
The page of the Chinese supplier is: http://www.kwanwing.com:81/Product/?page=64&sortid=
According to the schematic and what you have, the connector pinout should be:1/2/3/4/5-->blue/black/blue/red/red and you should read
a)AC volts relative to ground: 1/2/3-->15/0/15
b)AC volts relative to each other, not to ground: from 4 to 5 : 7 V
On the primary side you have 3 wires, only 2 are connected to 120V AC , the 3rd unconnected one is the 100V tap.
Unless it smokes/sparks or is open, I don't think you have a transformer problem.
What are the symptoms?.

When I'm measuring 1/2/3-->15/0/15 I need to have the black test probe attached to ground right?  I've got it attached to the ground screw coming in from the AC main line in.

For pins 4 and 5(7 volts) what should I have the ground lead test connected to for an accurate reading?

I've been looking for a replacement(online) for this transformer.  I can't seem to get the KWANWING page link to load that was given in one of the earlier messages.  Is it possible for you guys who can read chinese to tell me what the power rating for this transformer is?  I'm just trying to find a cheap suitable replacement from mouser or digikey or somewhere online cheap.  I've been without ANY guitar amp for quite a while now.  Thanks for the help guys!
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on August 18, 2009, 06:15:30 PM
Hi Zappacat. If you touch the black test lead to the chassis ground but the connector is unplugged, it's not ground any more !!!
To make it short:
NOTE: the transformer´s primary must be connected to 120VAC wall socket, the power switch must be on.
BE VERY CAREFUL WITH EVERYTHING THAT´S CONNECTED TO MAINS: POWER CABLE, FUSE, POWER SWITCH, ANYTHING ELSE I MIGHT HAVE FORGOTTEN BUT THAT YOU SEE IS CONNECTED TO THAT.
continuing:
1)put your DMM in 20V AC scale
2)Put the black probe into the transformer connector, in the hole nº2. Leave it there.
3)Put the red probe into hole nº1, you should read around 15V (AC)
4)Put the red probe into the hole nº 3. You should read about the same voltage as before.
5)Pull the black probe from Hole nº2 and put it in hole nº 4
6)Put the red probe into hole nº 5. You should read around 7V AC.
7) If you measure nothing on any of the earlier tests (or a ridiculously low voltage, as less than 1 volt) your transformer´s primary is open.
To be sure about that, you must check that the 120V reach the primary.
PULL THE POWER PLUG, and measure resistance across its pins: it should read "infinite" with the power switch off and a reasonable value (say 10 to 40 ohms) with power on.
If always open, "trace" it step by step, for example: from 1 power plug pin to one of the other ends of the power cable, from there to the next part of the circuit, say for example the fuse holder , and so on, until you reach the other power pin socket.
*IF* the transformer itself is open , then we´ll try to replace it.
To save time, try to measure the iron core itself, preferably in centimeters or millimeters rather than in fractions of inch.
Measure the height, the width and the thickness of the iron stack, plastic bobbin measurements help to confirm the former values.
Good luck.

NOTE: the transformer´s primary must be connected to 120VAC wall socket, the power switch must be on.
BE VERY CAREFUL WITH EVERYTHING THAT´S CONNECTED TO MAINS: POWER CABLE, FUSE, POWER SWITCH, ANYTHING ELSE I MIGHT HAVE FORGOTTEN BUT THAT YOU SEE IS CONNECTED TO THAT.
Example: neon pilot light, auxiliary power outlet, voltage selector, etc.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: Zappacat on August 18, 2009, 07:15:53 PM
Thanks JM.  With your help I've established that the transformer is working.  I didn't understand certain grounding issues and when I followed your steps it worked.  Anyone know much about the troubleshooting procedures for these line6 amps?  It seems the controls are inactive.  Nothing is lighting up or anything.  Any help greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on August 19, 2009, 02:50:32 AM
Next logical step:
Plug the transformer connector in its socket, turn the amp on, touch the ground screw with  the black probe and check with the red one that you have + and - 20/22 DC volts on the + and - tracks/pads of the power supply. The multimeter must be on the 200VDC scale. Then check that you have also around 8 or 9 volts unregulated or 5 volts regulated, which feed the logical/digital board.
If the digital part is dead it´s beyond you, me, and most everybody else, .
In that case the only sensible things to do are either have it factory-replaced under guarantee (I think now it´s late for that) or gut it and use it to build a "regular" analog amp.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: Zappacat on August 19, 2009, 11:40:43 AM
Quote from: J M Fahey on August 19, 2009, 02:50:32 AM
Next logical step:
Plug the transformer connector in its socket, turn the amp on, touch the ground screw with  the black probe and check with the red one that you have + and - 20/22 DC volts on the + and - tracks/pads of the power supply.
Can you clarify to me what/where the + and - tracks/pads of the power supply are?
Quote
The multimeter must be on the 200VDC scale. Then check that you have also around 8 or 9 volts unregulated or 5 volts regulated, which feed the logical/digital board.
What location should I be checking for this volatage?  The unregulated vs. regulated has me confused.
QuoteIf the digital part is dead it´s beyond you, me, and most everybody else,
In that case the only sensible things to do are either have it factory-replaced under guarantee (I think now it´s late for that) or gut it and use it to build a "regular" analog amp.
Good luck.
Thanks a lot for the help.  It has a Celestion "custom made" C12E-50 4 ohm speaker.  I can probably turn this into something cool.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on August 19, 2009, 10:28:16 PM
Dear Zappacat.
Please understand that we all appreciate you, and don´t want to be rough or unkind, but I don´t find other way to say it:
this Forum, or rather the full site , as I see it, was set up as a place to exchange information and ask/give help, but it´s not Electronics 101. A certain basic understanding is needed for anything above the most common tasks, such as "clean the pots", "check the fuse", etc.
If you have a Technician friend who's willing to help you, please ask him to do so.
Besides, you have a most difficult amp, where I think that most of us , and indeed anybody not belonging to the inner circle of Line 6 can´t possibly repair it, being such a groundbreaking technology, where they  are very advanced.
Good luck and best wishes.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: Zappacat on August 20, 2009, 12:00:00 AM
Quote from: J M Fahey on August 19, 2009, 10:28:16 PM
Dear Zappacat.
Please understand that we all appreciate you, and don´t want to be rough or unkind, but I don´t find other way to say it:
this Forum, or rather the full site , as I see it, was set up as a place to exchange information and ask/give help
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Quote
but it´s not Electronics 101. A certain basic understanding is needed for anything above the most common tasks, such as "clean the pots", "check the fuse", etc.
I don't remember asking you about either one of those situations.  Just a transformer that I don't understand and how to measure the voltage readings.
Quote
If you have a Technician friend who's willing to help you, please ask him to do so.
Besides, you have a most difficult amp, where I think that most of us , and indeed anybody not belonging to the inner circle of Line 6 can´t possibly repair it, being such a groundbreaking technology, where they  are very advanced.
Good luck and best wishes.
I'm about to fix this.  There were certain things I had to make sure were right/wrong before I got further into it namely the power supply info that you helped me with.  Quite interesting actually.  Since you put this "groundbreaking technology" on a higher ground(no pun intended) maybe you should enjoy someone making a real effort to dissect it and fix it.

enjoy!
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 03, 2010, 10:09:02 AM
Quote from: J M Fahey on August 03, 2009, 12:24:42 PM
Hi Zappacat, you should start learning the language of the future: Chinese.
I´m starting to do so.

Meanwhile: the 1X-5730-04H0 is :
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:15.2VAC x 2/7.
...
The 1X-6636-02H0 is:
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:16.3VAC x 2/7.

They both are made by Jetronics and cost Yen 17 and 27 respectively.
The 0814 code means Year2008, Week 14 (mid March).


Hi!

Reactivating this old topic. Do you happen to have the specs for the Line6 Spider III 75W as well? I would need both for the 110V and the 220V.

The story: I bought the amp in North America, then moved to Europe and plugged it in, being mislead by a sticker that was suggesting it's a dual transformer. Then boom! I took the amp to a Line6 dealer and a replacement transformer (220V) costs 160 EUR. Of course they wouldn't give me the transformer specs.

Then I tried to find this info on the Jetronics page, without success. I sent them an e-mail and got this strange answer:

From: Jetronics Ltd
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: transformer for Line6 guitar amp

Thank you for your inquiry! We would like to inform you we have the power transformer for Line 6 Spider III HD75. Could you please provide the authorization of Line 6 to use this transformer in your products for our reference?

Best regards,
Jetronics Ltd
Sales Dept
Web Site: www.jetronicsltd.com



Now my uncle claims he is able to calculate the output based on the size of the core and the number of the loops in the coil and then rewire the transformer. Not that I don't trust my uncle, but I would like to get some kind of confirmation on the actual specs before I let him dismember the transformer :)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: bry melvin on June 03, 2010, 03:17:19 PM
They probably  will only sell it to an authorized repair center and they want that ID #.

FWIW I've run into that with Marshall parts.

Amp companies sometimes want this as a method to help prevent cloning and wrongful death suits. (particularly from tube amps)




From line 6 FAQ:

Q: Where can I purchase parts for my Line 6 device?



A: Line 6 provides a number of replacement parts through our Online Store. If you are unable to find the part you need on the store, you may contact one of our Service Centers or Dealers to special order some parts. Please keep in mind that parts sales are at the service center or dealers discretion. Line 6 DOES NOT do direct parts sales.



Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: Enzo on June 03, 2010, 10:10:25 PM
I have to point out that the service center may have no idea what the specs are, even if they wanted to tell you.  My shop is an authorized warranty repair facility for most of the major amp brands - though not Line6 - and frankly I have no idea the specs on most any transformer I see.  If I determine a Peavey 5150 needs a transformer, I call Peavey and order one.  If I need a transformer for a MArshall TSL100, I call MArshall and order one.  And so on.  Knowing how may amperes of how many volts doesn't enter into the repair picture.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 04, 2010, 03:32:59 AM
I wish we were back in the old days when repairing meant more than just replacing a board or a transformer. I will not pay 160 EUR for a transformer when the whole amp cost me $350 two years ago. The whole thing doesn't worth more than a hundred bucks. So I'll just have to rely on my uncle's expertize.  Make it or break it. :)
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 04, 2010, 05:17:56 AM
Hi FBILIES.
If you want to, I can help your Uncle by double-checking his rewinding work.
Tell him to pull laminations, (post the E and I dimensions here and how high the stack is) , take a few pictures, make a drawing of wiring, colours, whatever, and start unwinding carefully.
He'll also need a micrometer (please use metric units) to measure wire diiameters.
He'll probably have two thick (around 0.80 mm) secondaries and a thinner , around 0.60 mm 120V primary with somewhat over twice the full secondary turns.
He'll have to make a new 220/240V primary, I'll help him calculate it.
He'll need to improvise some hand-cranked rewinding machine.
You should, in fact first try to get a professional rewinder who will have everything set up already, but if not, it can be handmade.
Anyway remember that your power amplifier and/or power supply is also damaged, not only the power transformer.
You'll also have to deal with that.
Good luck.
PS: obviously those 160 Euro are a steal !! But they don't *have* to sell you anything, so they set the price they like.
Those original chinese transformers cost less than 10 Euro at the factory, but they can only sell to the Original Equipment Manufacturer.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: rowdy_riemer on June 04, 2010, 03:24:14 PM
Why not just use any power transformer that supplies the same voltage with the same or higher volt-amp rating?
Title: Line6 Spider III 75W transformer conversion 220V
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 07, 2010, 07:25:27 AM
According to the repair shop the amp is fine, only the transformer burned. Not sure how they figured that out, maybe they are just trying to have me buy the transformer only to realize that the whole thing is broken. It would be great if you could help us, cause we got puzzled by a few facts when opening up the amp:

1. The AC input wires (black&white) don't go straight into the transformer, but onto the motherboard first, where something happens to the current most probably, cause then we have 3 wires (red, yellow, black) going out of the motherboard and into the transformer. First question: what does the motherboard do to the current and why 3 wires instead of 2?

2. The AC connector going out of the motherboard and into the transformer has 2 positions, depending on the AC input (110V or 220V). Which raises another question: what if the 2 transformer types have different specs and the 110V one cannot be used to clone a 220V transformer?

3. The transformer has 5 output wires (2 blue, 2 brown, 1 black), so there are several outputs there. Is it possible to figure them out at all?

My uncle says there are several standards for measuring E&I, I wasn't sure which one, so I'm sending a pic with all the measurements there are.

Thanks
Title: Re: Line6 Spider III 75W transformer conversion 220V
Post by: mensur on June 07, 2010, 07:43:40 AM
Quote from: f_b_ilies on June 07, 2010, 07:25:27 AM
According to the repair shop the amp is fine, only the transformer burned. Not sure how they figured that out, maybe they are just trying to have me buy the transformer only to realize that the whole thing is broken. It would be great if you could help us, cause we got puzzled by a few facts when opening up the amp:

1. The AC input wires (black&white) don't go straight into the transformer, but onto the motherboard first, where something happens to the current most probably, cause then we have 3 wires (red, yellow, black) going out of the motherboard and into the transformer. First question: what does the motherboard do to the current and why 3 wires instead of 2?

2. The AC connector going out of the motherboard and into the transformer has 2 positions, depending on the AC input (110V or 220V). Which raises another question: what if the 2 transformer types have different specs and the 110V one cannot be used to clone a 220V transformer?

3. The transformer has 5 output wires (2 blue, 2 brown, 1 black), so there are several outputs there. Is it possible to figure them out at all?

My uncle says there are several standards for measuring E&I, I wasn't sure which one, so I'm sending a pic with all the measurements there are.

Thanks
1.Motherboard has a switch probably for two kinds of fuses(one for 110V, other for 220V which is smaller).
3. 3 wires are  positive voltage, negative, and ground, other two are AC mains. That way most if not all modern poweramps are designed.
Your transformer is standard EI76 x 46 which is about 70W of continous power.
Title: Re: Line6 Spider III 75W transformer conversion 220V
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 07, 2010, 08:32:23 AM
Quote from: mensur on June 07, 2010, 07:43:40 AM
1.Motherboard has a switch probably for two kinds of fuses(one for 110V, other for 220V which is smaller).
3. 3 wires are  positive voltage, negative, and ground, other two are AC mains. That way most if not all modern poweramps are designed.
Your transformer is standard EI76 x 46 which is about 70W of continous power.

Thanks. The power requirements are 300W actually, I attached another pic above. And there are 2 types of fuses indeed.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: mensur on June 07, 2010, 08:46:20 AM
300W  :lmao:, they can write 10KW too, but it doesn't mean that is correct. Rough power can be calculated with this method;
your transformer is EI76x41, so 76/3(we get core dimension)=25.3mm x 41mm = 107W, then 107W x sqrt2 = 75.66W, but this is only a rough calculation, actually real power is much less in real life.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 07, 2010, 09:55:45 AM
Thanks, so what's next? Is this data enough to calculate the output voltage, which is the ultimate goal eventually? Or do I need to count loops also?
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 08, 2010, 01:22:02 AM
Excuse me for being the devil's advocate, but maybe your transformer isn't burnt at all.
Your pictures and measurements were excellent, *very* useful.
Let me add that Mensur's calculations are excelent, they are the classic very safe formulas, but let me add that on today's cut-throat competitive economics, using good iron and pushing everything to the limit, everything can be stretched. For example, I can (as well as *many* others), pull up to 150VA out of that transformer  :o, although it would work hot to the touch,  and which in turn would be barely adequate for a 2x75W power amp.
I guess they can get away with it, because by definition a modeler amp can *not* be used on full power nor even close to that, or the power amp saturation would swamp any sound generated in the preamp modeler.
A duty cycle lower than 100% would also help.
Anyway it's bad Engineering calculating everything for the most favorable case, instead of the usual worst case.
I'll ask you one more favor:
Please draw the transformer as a rectangle, seen from above, and draw clearly all wires that leave it, with proper colors and up to the corresponding connectors , if applicable.
Also post a couple pictures of said connectors plugged in the motherboard. The cherry on the cake would be some extra track.side board pictures, in those connectors and fuses area, as to lower the "guessing-stress"
Good luck.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: mensur on June 08, 2010, 03:23:04 AM
Disconnect mains, and secondary wires from the motherboard, and measure DC resistance between black, yellow and red, and second between mains (white and black), and tell us resistances. 
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 08, 2010, 04:24:50 AM
OK, I'll send you the info. It is possible that the transformer survived indeed. This is what happened actually:

- I was mislead by the label on the back of the power unit, which kinda suggested that it's a dual transformer (see pic above). Should've looked it up first, but it was an honest mistake at the same time. If you check the Line6 forum, there are 2-3 cases every week with people repeating the same mistake over and over. So I replaced the fuse from T4A to T2A, plugged it into 220V and boom, the fuse blew. Tried with another T2A fuse, same thing.

- then the fatal mistake, I put back the T4A fuse and plugged it into 220V. The fuse didn't blow anymore, but I smell and saw smoke. I turned it off right away, it was on only for less than a second

- then I got a 220V-110V transformer, a very small one 25-30W. I tried with that one too, I got the amp display on and a hum in the speaker, but none of the buttons worked. So either there wasn't enough juice given by the 220-110 transformer or the amp transformer survived, but the electronics in the amp burned :(

Let me ask you, in theory, what happens with the output voltage of a transformer, if we double the input? Say we have a transformer 110V->15V and we plug it into 220V, will we get double on the output (30V)? If so, that's bad news for my amp, unless there is some kind of 3rd level protection there (in case neither the fuse nor the transformer blow).

I'm still hoping that the amp is fine and only the transformer died, for 2 reasons:

- I wanna trust what the Line6 guy said
- I think I remember my uncle measuring resistance on the output wires (blue, blue, brown, brown, black) and there was no continuity, so he concluded the secondary might have fried

I'll come back with the measurements you asked for.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: mensur on June 08, 2010, 05:06:21 AM
Does your amp has 2xTDA7294 chips in poweramp section, or is it discrete one?Take the pics of the poweramp section, we can determine +/- volts by the poweramp, and by the number of winding loops as your uncle said.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: phatt on June 08, 2010, 09:35:07 AM
Quote from: f_b_ilies on June 08, 2010, 04:24:50 AM


Let me ask you, in theory, what happens with the output voltage of a transformer, if we double the input? Say we have a transformer 110V->15V and we plug it into 220V, will we get double on the output (30V)? If so, that's bad news for my amp, unless there is some kind of 3rd level protection there (in case neither the fuse nor the transformer blow).



Oh dear  :'( Yes absolutley,,, when you double the primary it doubles the secondary VAC, So yep you likely fried the whole thing.
An that's usually everything $expensive$ :'(
Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 08, 2010, 09:46:45 AM
I'm still hoping for some kind of 3rd level protection, there are some condensers in the front line
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 08, 2010, 11:13:33 PM
Problem is, semiconductors fry in 1 (one) milli-second, I'm not joking.
The first time,
*maybe*
the 2 A fuse blew with the original current trying to charge the filter capacitors, before they charged to an important voltage, because it takes a very short but definite time, but with your second, 4 A fuse, which did not blow ........  you nuked everything.
Anyway, I am trying to believe that your 160 € transformer survived, simply because of its cost and unavailability.
If you burnt those TDA7294, well , that's normal , it's built-in (at least Marshall thinks so) , they can be replaced.
Now, if you burnt that do-everything DSP, forget about your Line-6, now you have a nice chassis, cabinet, power supply and speakers to build, say, a Rodd Elliott preamp driving a couple TDA7294 and a couple Eminence speakers, which, mind you, will sound very good (although without effects).
If your transformer died (which might not have happened) , you can buy any regular transformer needed to power a couple TDA7294 or LM3886.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 10, 2010, 03:51:01 AM
The data I promised earlier. I draw a few sketches, took some measurements:

- first of all, I figured out what the 2 connectors (110/220V) on the motherboard are for. They simply drive the AC input coming on the B&W wires to different pins/wires (black/yellow/red) to be fed into the transformer. For 110, ground falls on the middle pin (red wire), while for 220 it falls on a side pin. It seems the 2 types of transformers have the input wires arranged differently. I figured this out by plugging the amp to 110V (via 220-110 transformer) and unplugging all transformer wires, then measuring the pins. See pic. Not sure this is correct, I thought ground is usually yellow, but this is what came out of the measurement.

- then I measured resistances on the transformer, see diagram

- I also measured the output voltage on the transformer and was surprised to get AC instead of DC. Is that correct? Values quite high also, 36.8V. So it seems the transformer survived, allthough not sure it's giving the right output. Either way, it's bad news for the amp part

- took some more pics of the boards, it seems I have an LM1086, an LM317T and another one MC7805CT. There is a DSP chip also.

Does it all fall into place? Is that 36.8V accurate or my tester is bad? I still wanna figure it out and buy a replacement transformer, so I can take it back to Line6 for further troubleshooting. I'm still hoping it's only a transistor or a condenser.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 10, 2010, 03:55:21 AM
More pics, second board, transistors
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: phatt on June 10, 2010, 10:42:05 AM
Hi f_b_ilies,
Ouch again!
You really need to consider learning the *Basics First* before jumping inside stuff you don't fully understand. (Now you are paying the price)  ::)

Transformers work on AC Volts only, that's Alternating Current.
i.e. 240VAC @ 50hZ.   Or 50 times a second it alternates.
DC (Direct Current) does not alternate.

It's all AC until it passes the Diodes which transform the AC voltage to DC.
(Your *Diodes* are in that black square thing, should have 4 legs)

Your reading of 36 V *?* means little to us as you have not qualified if it's AC or DC your meter is reading.

Google *Rectification* I'm sure you will find something that may help you to understand the basic principle of converting AC to DC.

Your *36 volts* is likely to be the *Rectified DC* that powers the circuit.
A clue to this can be found by reading the working voltage on the side of those 2 large Electro Caps on the board. If they read 50Volts then you secondary DC will be *Below* that voltage.

Your secondary AC is likely to be around 25-0-25 VAC which will deliver the 37-0-37 VDC.
(This is a common voltage for amps in this class.)

In these circuits the VDC is *Split around Zero Volts*

So you have a *Positive Voltage and a Negitive* and Zero or common.
hence 3 wires 8|


Go here http://evatco.com.au/hamptchoke.htm

Click on
**Transformer Selection Guide**

If you are intending to learn *How stuff works* You will need Know this one day,,,
so Save it and print it out.
Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 10, 2010, 08:07:59 PM
Quote- first of all, I figured out what the 2 connectors (110/220V) on the motherboard are for. They simply drive the AC input coming on the B&W wires to different pins/wires (black/yellow/red) to be fed into the transformer. For 110, ground falls on the middle pin (red wire), while for 220 it falls on a side pin. It seems the 2 types of transformers have the input wires arranged differently. I figured this out by plugging the amp to 110V (via 220-110 transformer) and unplugging all transformer wires, then measuring the pins. See pic. Not sure this is correct, I thought ground is usually yellow, but this is what came out of the measurement
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO .....................YOU ARE GOING TO DIE............................

1) YOU ASSUME THAT SOME PRIMARY CONNECTION GOES TO GROUND, OR "IS" GROUND, IT IS NOT.
NEVER ANY PART OF THE PRIMARY IS OR TOUCHES GROUND OR ANY PART OF YOUR CHASSIS ..... NEVER.
2) Your transformer does NOT have a 110V/220V primary.
It EITHER has a 100V/120V tapped primary (your case) OR it has a 220V/240V tapped primary (yours does not)
3) You need a 220V/110V transformer to use your amplifier.
4) Your transformer is fine, you just saved €160 or whatever.
5) Your amplifier is, VERY probably dead (sorry)  :'( :'(
6) In the VERY UNLIKELY case that your amp survived, just for peace of mind, replace all fuses as stated in the manual or the different labels (use those related to 120V), plug into a 220/110V transformer, size at least 150VA, preferably 250to 300VA and power it on.
If it works, pray a lot and donate to some charity, you'll feel better after doing that.
If it does not, you have a beautiful cabinet, speaker, chassis and PSU to build an LM7294 or 3886 kit and some preamp.
Good luck.
PS: your drawings and measurements were EXCELLENT, very useful, I felt as if I had the amp on my own bench, thanks.
Pity the diagnostic was not the best.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: phatt on June 11, 2010, 03:31:14 AM
Thanks Mr, Fahey
Whoops I missed that one. :-[
Good to know chaps like you are floating around to pick up the Fatal mistakes. :tu:
Personally I think this chap should quit while he is still breathing and hand it over to someone *Qualified*.
Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 11, 2010, 08:06:15 AM
Thanks Phatt!

I actually said that the 36.8V is AC, that's why I was surprised. If you check the diagram, I also stated there that all voltages are in AC. It makes sense now with blue/black/blue wires, but I still don't understand the two brown wires where I get the 10.2 VAC. Is that powering another area of the boards or something? So I still don't know what to ask for if I go to a shop. A 220VAC to 36.8VAC/10.2 VAC transformer, 75W? Is that it?

Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 11, 2010, 08:52:39 AM
Quote from: J M Fahey on June 10, 2010, 08:07:59 PM

Quote

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO .....................YOU ARE GOING TO DIE............................

 ;D I think I was safe, I didn't touch anything directly, only used the tester.
Quote
1) YOU ASSUME THAT SOME PRIMARY CONNECTION GOES TO GROUND, OR "IS" GROUND, IT IS NOT.
NEVER ANY PART OF THE PRIMARY IS OR TOUCHES GROUND OR ANY PART OF YOUR CHASSIS ..... NEVER.

If it's not ground, that I don't know what it is. This is what I did:

- unplugged all transformer wires from board
- only plugged the B&W wires to the board
- plugged the unit into a 220V-110V transformer (~25W), then into the wall socket (220V). So at this stage I had the whole transformer off
- then I measured all pin combinations on the 2 connectors on the board (where the B/R/Y wires should go). Since I didn't get any reading on the pin that I marked with G in combination with any of the other 2 pins, I figured that must be the ground. Then on the remaining 2 pins I measured 120VAC

Quote
2) Your transformer does NOT have a 110V/220V primary.
It EITHER has a 100V/120V tapped primary (your case) OR it has a 220V/240V tapped primary (yours does not)

Yeah, got that.

Quote
3) You need a 220V/110V transformer to use your amplifier.
4) Your transformer is fine, you just saved €160 or whatever.

I'm debating whether to buy a 220\110 transformer or a cheap replacement for the original transformer (220V version). To which I'm still not sure about all the specs (for example the 2 brown wires). The 220/110 transformer seems an easier option.

Quote
5) Your amplifier is, VERY probably dead (sorry)  :'( :'(

Yeah, now at least I can go to phase 2 and still hope for an easy fix (a condenser or something). I think I'll just buy a 220/110V transformer and take it back to Line6 for further troubleshooting, so they can at least power it up and look further. Allthough their level of expertize is now questionnable, since their diagnose was that the transformer is dead. I'm granting them that they had to guess, since they didn't have a 220/110 transformer to power up the unit for measurements.

Quote
6) In the VERY UNLIKELY case that your amp survived, just for peace of mind, replace all fuses as stated in the manual or the different labels (use those related to 120V), plug into a 220/110V transformer, size at least 150VA, preferably 250to 300VA and power it on.

One last question: since I don't have such a big 220/110 transformer yet, I had to use a 25W one. Now if I get the lights on and a hum in the speaker, is that a bad sign or a good sign? Is it suppose to work with a 25W transformer anyways or it just doesn't give enough juice to power the amp properly and maybe that's why I get the hum? Just for me to sleep better during the weekend, until Monday when I can buy a proper 220/110 transformer.  :)
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: phatt on June 11, 2010, 10:21:55 AM
Quote from: f_b_ilies on June 11, 2010, 08:06:15 AM
Thanks Phatt!

I actually said that the 36.8V is AC, that's why I was surprised. If you check the diagram, I also stated there that all voltages are in AC. It makes sense now with blue/black/blue wires, but I still don't understand the two brown wires where I get the 10.2 VAC. Is that powering another area of the boards or something? So I still don't know what to ask for if I go to a shop. A 220VAC to 36.8VAC/10.2 VAC transformer, 75W? Is that it?

HI FB,
Look I've missed a couple of things,, sorry for that.

With all due respect if people here do not even understand the function of the transformer then those people put other folks in a very awkward situation.
Safety is a real issue when playing around inside gear.

I quote you from a previous post;
"I also measured the output voltage on the transformer and was surprised to get AC instead of DC."

It's those kind of comments that tell me you don't have enough knowledge to fix this thing. :grr

JMF has given the best advice,,,if you are smart quit now and hand it to someone with the ability to trouble shoot what's wrong,,,or trash it as you've likely fried it all anyway.

No disrespect mate but I'd rather you hate me than to find out you are DEAD. 8|

If your measurements are indeed correct (unlikely but possible) then there is a very high risk of FATAL electric shock.  NO Not from just the mains ,,,BUT FROM the 2 DC rails which may have 100VDC floating between them. 36x 2= 72. 72x 1.4= 100VDC that's 50-0-50VDC Rails.
Touching both Pos and Neg rails will leave you with no time to say;
Hey man, maybe, Zit I should have, Zit taken Phil's advice, Zit. :-* :-*

Anything above around 70/80 Volts (DC or AC) is deadly dangerous and should be treated with the same respect as the mains. :trouble

I have an Amp here right now with 140 VDC between the Rails,,, spooky ,,
I hate working on this big stuff.

So go check those 2 Big Capacitors (next to the square black blob, the Rectifier) and *Read The Working Voltage* **(What does it read?)**
The VDC inside the Amp circuit will/should always be *Less* than what is written on those.
That will at least give you some idea of what your DMM should be reading.

*****I sense, Something is very wrong with those measurements you give******
Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 11, 2010, 10:43:32 AM
No worries Phil, I don't hate you  :) You are only trying to help. I don't have the basics indeed, but I thought measuring a few things can cause no harm, as long as I keep my fingers away. And I only did that because I did take it to "professionals" first, but they gave me BS. So I had to go on my own, at least for the first part. I only wanted to know if the transformer is OK, so I can go for the 220/110 transformer or otherwise go with the original 160 EUR transformer (or a cheap replacement, if I could figure out the specs). I have my answer, I'll go for the 220/110 transformer. Which is actually a prerequisite for the next level troubleshooting. So that's it, I'm off of it, I will certainly do not replace any parts myself. I'll take it to someone, but I wanted to get some basic understanding so they don't BS me again.

Thanks for your help!  0:)
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 11, 2010, 04:23:33 PM
Hi f b ilies, ¿you still with us?
I got a little worried now that you started to sign using the "angel" emoticon -> 0:)<- .
Well supposing it only means your good heart (in both ways: good feelings and resistance to mains current through it) we can go on a little further.
To begin with, you can *start* testing with your 25W 220/110V transformer.
If you get DC power from that bridge and capacitors , say, about +35V and -35V or thereabouts, I can trust that your transformer and main power supply is still good.
The low voltage winding (around 10V AC) probably powers a +15/-15V supply for the op amps and +5V to the DSP area.
Even if the digital part is dead, meaning you don't have a "spider something" there any more, at least you can mount a couple conventional boards there and play your guitar.
Anyway, buy that 250W or bigger (as much as you can) 220/110 transformer, because no doubt , now or later, you'll have more stuff to use it.
As of the Line 6, not even the factory repairs them, they just dump the boards and give you a new one (if under warranty) or tell you to dump the full amp itself, if not.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 15, 2010, 09:49:16 AM
I think I have some good news. I bought the 300W 220/110 transformer and the amp works fine on headphones. The chassis/speaker is with my uncle, going to retrieve it asap. At least I know the effects are OK.

Btw, the 220/110 transformer doesn't have grounding, is that OK?
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: phatt on June 15, 2010, 09:56:33 AM
Quote from: f_b_ilies on June 15, 2010, 09:49:16 AM

Btw, the 220/110 transformer doesn't have grounding, is that OK?

Primary ground?
             I believe that one has already been answered. 8|
CT of the *secondary* is normally used as the *Common* node.
Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 15, 2010, 10:33:45 AM
Got that, but I meant the transformer's power cord and the wall plug. Same for the 110 output, it has only 2 holes. So when I plug the amp's power cord into the transformer, the ground pin just hangs in the air. I was expecting it to have a dummy ground wire between input and output, bypassing the actual transformer, just to provide grounding for the amp.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: phatt on June 15, 2010, 11:14:33 AM
Then you need to FIX it!!!  :trouble
The incoming Ground wire should be *Bolted* (with the proper washer and lock nut) to the Metal Chassis of the Amp.
Drill a new hole if need be but *failure to Ground the Amp* might be the last mistake you ever make 0:)

While we are on the subject;
Don't tie any in coming *Mains wiring* to low voltage or signal wires.
Keep Mains seperated from all the other stuff.
The reason should be obvious 8|
Phil.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 15, 2010, 11:22:32 AM
I get what you mean.
You may add a ground lug under any screw which touches the chassis and use a long wire, with a crocodile on each end, and ground your amp anywhere available, such as a cold water tap.
The other (better) option would be to build a dedicated power strip, with the 220/110 transformer mounted on a piece of plywood, with a 3 prong cable that goes into the wall and a 3 hole socket for your amp, where the ground connection goes straight through, skipping the transformer.
You should also match neutral to neutral.
Both hots won't be directly connected, being that one is 110V and the other 220V.
If my explanation sounds confusing, tell me and I'll draw a wiring diagram for you.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 15, 2010, 11:47:01 AM
Quote from: J M Fahey on June 15, 2010, 11:22:32 AM
I get what you mean.
You may add a ground lug under any screw which touches the chassis and use a long wire, with a crocodile on each end, and ground your amp anywhere available, such as a cold water tap.
The other (better) option would be to build a dedicated power strip, with the 220/110 transformer mounted on a piece of plywood, with a 3 prong cable that goes into the wall and a 3 hole socket for your amp, where the ground connection goes straight through, skipping the transformer.
You should also match neutral to neutral.
Both hots won't be directly connected, being that one is 110V and the other 220V.
If my explanation sounds confusing, tell me and I'll draw a wiring diagram for you.

I think I got it. The main idea, in simple words: I need to drive the amp's power chord ground prong into the wall socket's ground, right? All this with proper 3 prong/hole cable/socket
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 15, 2010, 03:21:49 PM
Yes, you have to provide a "copper path" from the amp's ground to the wall socket ground, irrespective of what the other two pins see.
Easy to check: after witing *do not* plug nothing into the wall outlet, and confirm with your multimeter that the chassis ground actually has direct continuity to the male power ground and has no continuity whatsoever to any of the two other pins.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 16, 2010, 02:08:23 PM
Too happy too soon. The amp part is dead after all. There is a continuous hum in the speaker, that doesn't change when I turn the volume knob. It doesn't go off when I connect the headphones either, allthough that is suppose to mute the speaker. The headphones output works fine though, no hum in the headphones. My uncle is looking into it. The amp board is fairly simple, there are only a few parts on it and they seem replaceable. It doesn't show in the pics sent earlier, cause it's a bit hidden and I didn't notice it. I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 16, 2010, 04:28:14 PM
Well, if the preamp/digital stuff  is alive, good for you, that's the unrepairable part (not even at the factory)
If the power amp is dead, it can be either repaired or , worst case, replaced.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 17, 2010, 03:48:03 PM
One step further. The TDA you mentioned before was actually hidden behind a cover that was pushing it towards the radiator. After taking that off, the root cause became visible quite spectacularly. We saw that it's a TDA7293 and it's all smoked and has a few pins completely burned off, see pics. My uncle then measured the voltage between pins 13 and 15 according to the TDA datasheet below:

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/SGSThomsonMicroelectronics/mXrqwxu.pdf

He got about 75VDC there and concluded that probably everything is alright up to that point. After taking off the board he measured all the capacitors as well and there was still electricity in them, so they probably survived as well. The only thing I'm worried about is the other small chip CTS0814, it has some smoke on the pins, but it's probably from the TDA blow.

Now I'm debating wheter to replace the TDA or the whole board. Seems equally difficult, cause the wire stripe is soldered directly to the board as well, it doesn't have a connector. I think I'll just find someone to replace the TDA first, since we don't have the proper tools. Then worst case, I'll go back to Line6 for a board. Wonder how much they will charge?

My uncle also said we could also replace with a TDA7294 (he actually has one at home), saying that it pretty much does the same thing as the 7293, but it's more resistant and can take higher voltages. Just in case I didn't learn my lesson.  :duh
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: bry melvin on June 17, 2010, 06:58:16 PM
that "other chip" is a resistor network
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CTS/767163203GP/?qs=hbgUSdfWRJVF%2fMAjWsBsKQ%3d%3d
here is its Mouser page:


its part number is the top one 767163203GP  CTS is the manufacturer te rest is likely date codes
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 18, 2010, 09:52:31 PM
Hi fbillies.
Your amp can be repaired, so PLEASE do not destroy it by trying.
Work slowly.
To begin with, if you can not reolace the ribbon wire, much less you can replace the chip.
1) Although they are almost twin brothers, replace the 7293 by the same code.
2) Thouse are ttrough hole plated, dual side boards, VERY easy to damage.
Get a *GOOD* soldering iron, around 4W; a *GOOD* solder sucker, some desoldering braid. You need those holes clean of solder before pulling the power chip.
Anyway, since it is already dead and no Terminator, cut all pins beforehand, close to the plastic body (and far from the board) so you can remove them one by one.CAREFULLY
3) Clean old grease, put new one plus a new mica insulator and mount tightly but not crushing it.
*Then* solder it to the board.
Use a lamp bulb limiter the first time, it's quite possible that the amp works at once.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: f_b_ilies on June 21, 2010, 04:11:17 AM
I took it to a professional. He replaced the TDA and saw a broken track underneath. He fixed it with a wire. We turned it on, smoke and sparks again around the TDA. Then we noticed another broken track, it's actually visible in the last picture above, on the right side of the resistor. We fixed that one too, turned it on, no smoke anymore, just a loud pulsing hum in the speaker. It was late Saturday afternoon, the shop was closing, so now I'm waiting for further troubleshooting.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on the
Post by: J M Fahey on June 21, 2010, 10:50:01 AM
Quotesmoke and sparks again
I guess you did not use a lamp limiter .
Work relaxed and unhurried, check everything twice, by going slow you are actually saving time.
Also remember to start testing the amplifier *no load*, no speaker attached, until you are sure you have no DC on the output.
Besides that, *now* you know why "Late Friday Jobs" have such a bad reputation.
Don't pester the guy when "he's closing the shop", wait until Monday (or whenever he can do it)
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: teemuk on June 21, 2010, 11:55:53 AM
Do the higher power Spiders have a switch mode power supply? If yes, then light bulb limiter might not work with them and some alternatives are needed.

But if you can use one, definitely do so.
Title: Re: Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?
Post by: f_b_ilies on July 22, 2010, 03:58:04 AM
Hi there!

Just an update on this, there is some kind of improvement. The amp works at least, but occasionally and randomly I get a fluctuation in the tone, sound gets very bassy and at the same time a static hum starts also. Then sometimes I hear a ticking sound in the speaker. All these don't seem to happen on very low volume.

I'll take it back to the repair shop. The guy says it could be a condenser that he missed.