Modelling amps-genuine or not?

[Farthing]

There are many out there who describe modelling amp voicings as clinical or synthetic or even phoney.
It could be true in some cases. However the alternative, which is to buy the real deal-valve amps, is very expensive. A Marshall,Vox AC,Fender and Mesa alone can amount to several thousand pounds or dollars;you then need space to store the things. I own a small modelling unit and the sounds,while not capturing every nuance of what they imitate, come across as genuine enough for me.

[teemuk]

I think the answer greatly depends, and not in the least of personal preferences and opinions.

I've heard many modeling amps that - when set to a particular model - nail the tone of the tube amps that inspired them, at least in the amount of "reality" that I don't really bother to care if the tone isn't 100 percently "there". The very same modeling amps / preamps may also have a handful of models that, on the other hand, do not do as good job.

Add to that, it's greatly - GREATLY - a matter of how the thing is dialled in to sound in the first place. Most offer a great variety in how they can be dialled and there are good settings and bad settings. Add to that, reference amp may be dialled in certain way and the final user dials the modeling amp another way, so the two effectively end up sounding quite different. Personally, I don't even use my modeling multieffect/preamp pedal setup to try to sound like any specific amp in particular. I just exploit the overall possibilities of the different tones and dial the stuff the way I like it. My day isn't ruined if the "Blackface" patch doesn't sound exactly like some particular BF Fender model (which may sound different from rest of BF Fenders) or if the "Recto" patch doesn't nail the exaxt tone of some specific Mesa/boogie amp with some specific speaker cabinet, specific overall dial setup, at some particular stage or room.

I have also heard plenty of tube amps that soud clinical, synthetic and phoney. Heck, a great deal of the modern high-gain tube amps fill that clause. When you process the signal a considerable amount it will end up sounding processed no matter whether the processing is done by analog circuitry or by digital algorithms mimicing such. Tons of layered high gain, compression and drastic shaping of response will sound processed. That's just the nature of it.

[Enzo]

Teemu makes the point, it is about what sounds good to you, not whether the sound is an exact 100% accurate reproduction of the sound of some other amp.   Modellers are supposed to sound more or less like what they emulate.  Some are closer than others.   No one claims their modelling amp sounds identical to the originals, at least not honestly.  But if they sound good, and capture the spirit of the original, then they have done their job.

I'd agree, that rather than worrying if such and such a model is EXACTLY like the original, I just approach it like a versatile amp and dial in the tones I can get looking for ones I like.

[darwindeathcat]

Hi all....  I was just checking back in on this forum after a long absence and saw this thread. I thought i'd post because the reason I've been away so long is that I bought my first DSP amp simulator, and my quest for good quality sound at a low price was over! So I guess you'd call me a "believer" in amp modelers, but I do want to stress that I fully agree that they may not sound *exactly* like the amps they are trying to simulate. Not being an amp purist to begin with, this has never bothered me. To me, if it sounds good, then it is good, and my little RP unit sounds great to my ears! Personally, I think a lot of the bad rap these kinds of units get is from folks who bought them expecting a panacea, but never took the time to figure out how the things work, and never took the time to get all the levels set and their patches in good working order.

BTW, now that I'm a DSP guy (for tone), I'm now into SS amps even MORE than I was before. Only now my quest is simply for a nice clean amp to make my tone louder! I'm thinking about totally redoing my lm3885 amp with a nice clean buffer in place of the dirty little preamp I have in there, and then building a nice 2 way speaker cab to go along with it... It would be ideal to have this battery powered (at the cost of some output capacity) so I can take my show on the road (litterally).

Cheers,

DDC

[Enzo]

DDC, may I ask if you play on stage?  Or do you play at home?

It has been my experience that the people who give modellers a "bad rap," are people who tried them, liked the sounds, but found that while they sound good at home, once you get on stage and have to play at stage volume, and fit in with the test of the band, they often fall short.

Not saying that is always true, ther are people who use nothing but and are thrilled.  But that volume distinction is what sticks in my mind.

[teemuk]

I've heard the "doesn't cut through", "sounds like sh*t on higher volumes" arguments many times too. I've also seen many of the same amps those arguments were used against on stages cutting thorugh and sounding good.

In most cases it's practically just a user error: In their case the tone should have been tweaked at the band volumes with the band, not at whisper volumes, alone in the bedroom, and then turned up.

Many people just won't have the patience to go through the learning curve. Kinda like certain people's bias against Mesa/boogie's when the only real issue is the stubborness to keep every tone control at or close the noon and not having the patience to tweak a few minutes and try a bit more "unconventional" dial settings.

[J M Fahey]

Agree and add: this is a typical complaint from what can be called "bedroom rockers" .
Nothing bad about that, not everybody has a band with a fully setup studio (or at least a large garage) plus weekly gigs plus ample free hours to play whenever they wish, at loud volumes.
So it's usually you alone, playing along a mild, controllable backing track, at home, after work (meaning too late for everybody else), all of which mean a real low volume (compared to what playing 3 feet from a real drummer would be).
So with a versatile and powerful (I mean processing power, not the wall shaking kind) modeller you can easily dial a killer sound .... under those circunstances.
You can easily extract incredible bass from a relatively tiny cabinet ... at 85/90 dB SPL which is already too loud for family peace.
At the 100/105 dB required to match a drummer, that very same killer sound falls apart to pieces, *unless* you have a very powerful system to back it.
The *typical* complain I am asked to help with almost everyday is a guitar player with some fancy pedalboard or a Pod/Vamp/etc plugged into his trusty old Valvestate80/Bandit/Crate G80/etc. which typically is an SS combo, small, portable, 1x12" open back cabinet, etc.
You can easily dial a wall smashing Dual Rectifier_driving_a_4x12" sound there .... at home or light rehearsal levels ... but on Friday or Saturday night, on a real stage and trying to match a real drummer plus other real players, you simply don't have the required raw power, plus speaker efficiency and square inches ... it's simple physics laws which can't be beaten.
Funny thing is, that very same Bandit or whatever will work very well on that stage ... provided it's asked to supply its own sound, not somebody else's.
Does it mean sounding like a compact portable mid power combo? ..... well .... that's what it actually is !! 

[Farthing]

On the subject of authenticity,in my experience Roland are pretty good. I own the microcube portable  4 speaker model. The AC30 setting is very authentic as is the Blackface . Not so good on high gain/ overdrive but then it is only 5 watts in total. The more recent 40 and 80 watt XL range have had good reviews.
As I said previously,the alternative is to buy 4 or 5 valve amps which add up to a lot of money. most guitarists are not proffesional.

[Enzo]

And the average bedroom warrior also does not have a PA system and a sound man to assist that great stage sound that some get.

[darwindeathcat]

I use my DSP pedal (a digitech RP unit) in small venues (like coffee houses), but I usually play out on the streets (I'm more of a busker than anything else). I use it with a small 20 watt PA (an old Realistic brand 2-channel with discreet transistors) at what I would call "reasonable" sound levels (i.e., no need for ear plugs, but loud enough to be heard in the back of the room). However, I'm a one-man band, so I don't have to compete with anyone else's (too) loud amplifiers. I use this set up to play both amplified harmonica and cigar box guitar. I love it because I have a range of tones at my fingertips (toes?) and I don't have to cart around a ton of equipment. I will say that my old PA doesn't stay clean enough at the volume that I need, and it starts to color the tone from my RP unit. This is one reason I'm considering to convert my more powerful lm-3885 amp to be basically a clean PA. I don't need extra volume, I just would like a bit more clean headroom.

fwiw, I totally agree that you have to program the unit at full volume. When I first got it, I made some patches that sounded great at home, but as soon as I plugged in an turned up, it was feedback city and bad tone. Instead of giving up, however, I tweaked. I soon realized that I just hadn't set up the damn unit correct. Also, I realized that I needed to re-tweak for EVERY different microphone I wanted to use with it. Settings that sound amazing with my stick mic sound like *s!!t* with my bullet, or with my bicuit mic, and vice versa.

[joecool85]

...This is one reason I'm considering to convert my more powerful lm-3885 amp to be basically a clean PA. I don't need extra volume, I just would like a bit more clean headroom.

Did you mean LM3886?

[darwindeathcat]

Yeah, sorry. Mistyped. Actually, I'm considering to build a class D, as I kinda want a battery powered PA. The tripath chips can provide very decent output with single rail 12v power. I was looking at one kit for 2 x 15 watt stereo set up that claimed 2 amp peak current draw http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=320-308. If that's the case, you could even power a PA with rechargeable NiMh AA's and get at least an hour and a half of run time. Making that PA would be super easy, and the kit i was looking at is only $22. Couple it with a DSP pedal and you are good to go!

EDIT: This guy beat me to it! http://www.harmonycentral.com/docs/DOC-1833 This is EXACTLY the kind of rig I'm thinking about building. Super portable and GREAT sound!

[joecool85]

EDIT: This guy beat me to it! http://www.harmonycentral.com/docs/DOC-1833 This is EXACTLY the kind of rig I'm thinking about building. Super portable and GREAT sound!

Neat!  I've thought about doing something like that for a while but never got around to it.  Plus at the time I was planning on using SLA batteries which are quite large and heavy compared to what he used.

[gbono]

wow over $100 just for batteries - portable but not cheap.

[J M Fahey]

For any reasonable power output (15/60W) the only cost effective battery I found was the ubiquitous 12V7A gel cell battery (the cheap ones used in alarms, emergency lights and such)
NiMH AA ones only provide usable life for 1 ior 2 W amps, barely louder than a steel string guitar, banjo, etc. ... unless you purchase U$100 worth of them.