Yamaha G-100 bluesy pedal?

[Scoticus]

OK,
Looking for opinions on a good way to make the G-100 bluesy.
(Bluesy to me means nice and warm and slightly over-driven)

Foot pedal?
anyone have a home built that does the job?
Tube preamp?
mods?
I tried the Digitech Bad Monkey (Me no likey) very mechanical sounding.

This is the G100-115 series 1 if that makes a difference to anyone. 
Thanks,

[J M Fahey]

Blues sound is the most difficult, no kidding.
Same as buzzsaw heavy thrash or muddy punk sounds are easiest.
If you dare, build the Marshall Bluesbreaker pedal, set up with care gives you a good approximation of Clapton's old "heavy blues" sound.
Now if you want a SRV twangy blues type, only with an overdriven Super Reverb or similar, maybe *boosted* with a Tube Screamer, but the main distortion coming from overdriven power tubes. Sorry.
No pedal so far does that.

[mexicanyella]

Have you ever tried a Boss SD-1 Super Overdrive? The yellow one (not the more distorted, midrangy and orange DS-1 Distortion)? Something like that, with the gain set pretty low and the level set pretty high, might give you relatively natural-sounding light clipping.

Also, some say combining compressors and distortion pedals is counterproductive, since distortion effects tend to compress the signal anyway, but if you compress the signal before you hit the distortion, it can affect the level and character of the distortion you get...sort of like rolling back your volume knob to clean your tone up. It's more about imparting some control onto the signal into the distortion, to limit how much it will distort, rather than controlling it to get it to sit right in a music mix or whatever.

I've gotten some cool medium-gain tones from a Rat II pedal by running a compressor in front of it...the Rat II is nobody's idea of a subtle effect, but by playing with the attack, compression and output level controls on an old DOD compressor pedal I was able to mellow that Rat right out, leaving a lot of the harsh fizzy/fuzzy bite and just getting a nice smooth grind.



You might also find that skipping the distortion altogether and cranking your Yamaha up a bit with a compressor in front of it can give you  sustain and the kind of enevelope you'd get playing through a cranked tube amp, and that you don't miss the distorted toothiness anyway. It's something to try. If you're really after a singing, sustainy and blooming sound to do bluesy single-note phrases, like B.B. King might, consider his tone...punchy and sustainy, but pretty clean. You don't usually hear him, or SRV, to name two obvious blues guys, playing crunchy power chords...so maybe if you're really after that playing approach, you don't need a distortion pedal so much as volume and sustain.

[Scoticus]

Thanks you guys!
lots to think about...

what about one of those pedals with a tube in it.
Vox makes one with multiple effects. I don't really care about the effects, I just want a little reverb and some nice warm tone, but something like that. maybe a kit or something.
any thoughts?

[J M Fahey]

The tube in those Vox pedals is often a gimmick, given that they are fed 1 or 2 filament volts (they need 6.3 or 12.6 V) and plate 9V (they usually need from 160V to 250V).
They dare to call this "cool tube technology" when it should be called *cold* tube.
Oh well.

[Scoticus]

OK,
You guys have really cleared up my thinking on this issue.
thanks!

[mexicanyella]

If the Vox unit you're thinking of is the Tonelab, which is sort of a floor processor with a preamp tube in it, I've been told by at least two people that those things have some good sounds in them, and I've heard recorded examples by one of the guys who told me that. I'm sure one of those could achieve a range of bluesy overdrive tones.

But my inclination would be to say that you have an amp that is not too common, which probably has a unique tonal personality of its own, whereas you could plug a Tonelab into anything and sound like you were using a Tonelab.

I'd be in favor of trying everything you can try with that Yamaha amp and see if it can do something unique for you before putting it downstream of some unit that imposes a different personality. Not too many people can say they are cranking a G100-115 these days!

[Scoticus]

Kind of what I was thinking.
the problem is that my neighbors  are a little close for 100 Watts...
You know, now that I think about it, Their not really "good" neighbors.
hmmm...

"Just let the Yamaha be a Yamaha"
That's very zen...

[J M Fahey]

The Tonelab (and fully synthesised Vox Valvetronix and others) sound *very* good, no doubt about that, it's just that they are actually Korg and they are good at that.
But you hinted at building something and Korg will never release necessary info.
Try the pedal I suggested, you can build it in a weekend and cost is nil.

[Scoticus]

So I am looking at the General Guitar Gadgets kit for the Blues Breaker.
I saw a video on youtube with a guy playing one through a Fender Frontman 25R sounded pretty good
Looks like a fun project
Do you have any suggestions as far as buying a kit?
The best bang for the buck kinda thing.
thanks,

[J M Fahey]

I only know the GGG project.
Not a full kit, afaik , but parts are *very* easy and standard.
I guess they supply the PCB on demand.
Or you can download the ready to thermal transfer PCB layout.
It may get a little experimenting to have good results with "glossy magazine paper", the stuff cheap guys (like me) prefer, but google "PNP Blue" which is the real stuff and still inexpensive.
Or even better, build it first on ProtoBoard so you can test and hear it before actual building.

[phatt]

Just adding more options.
Here is a circuit that will certainly deliver a darker blues tone.
Really Smooth Overdrive (RSO) by member *mictester* at FSB

Certainly nails the Santana feel, heaps of sustain if you desire.

If you desire even more tonal options then consider my PhAbbTone circuit in front of RSO.

As J M Fahey noted, I strongly suggest a breadboard build first.
It might seem like a longer way to the end product but from years of testing circuits it will save hours of labor that often ends up in land fill. hint

Original posting by Mictester here;
http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8763&hilit=rso 

IMHO Vox Tlab is a pile of &&*&^%$$ but some of the kids love this gristly harsh tin pan trashy stuff so maybe I'm an old fella with no understanding of tone for the modern player,,,, but then I notice quite a few kids keep asking Me how I get my sounds,,
Phil.

[Scoticus]

OK
I think I have a breadboard laying around somewhere. That seems like a good way to go about it.
Anyone have a supplier in mind for components?
I need to do some research on the PCB thing.
Low cost is where I am at and I kinda like to do as much as I can myself.
That said, I don't want to take forever doing the project.
Anyone know of a good tutorial?

[phatt]

OK lets go back to your *bad monkey* and like gear for a bit and I'll try to explain why it so hard to get your head around it.

A Classic Example;

A tube screamer a fender vibroverb and an old Strat will get you halfway to a texas sound. **But note that most of the focus is on the pedal and guitar**,, not the Amp.

As most players are not technicians then High voltage Amplifiers look too scary to even try to understand let alone build.
The budding guitar teck will likely dabble in a few wiring mods and the pedals tend to get modded a lot because they are all low voltage battery jobs and with some light reading a few mods are not that hard.

By design this is how the novice will view the following;

The pedal gets stomped on for the lead break and even with just clean signal boost will send a well made Valve rig into more Overdrive,,,, So the focus is on the TONE MOJO of the pedal NOT the Amp.

Now the kids go down the street and buys a Signature SRV Strat
(which sound nothing like the originals) and forks out big bucks for a green box BUT then buys a SS amp.

Only to find it is now as harsh as hell and sounds nothing like the original sound/Tone.
Opps?? wot happened.

The Magic actually comes from the friggin Valve Amps from that era and they do not work the same as most SS rigs.

Generally speaking you will find that most SS amps have much more bandwidth that old Valve amps.
They also work in a different manner.
The last thing you want for blues is too much high frequency response

Valve Amps *of the era I'm speaking of* had lots of rattly triode distortion and when turned up full the power Valves themselves would then also compress and add even more sustain and crunch.

Now the moment you stand on a green box it sends even more distorting sustain through the system.

So in truth 90% of the mojo is due to the quirks of those old Amps,,, NOT the Darn PEDAL  :grr

Almost any TS9.99999 into a SS rig will likely sound friggin awful because the chain of events has been dramatically changed.

To get anywhere near the same effect using all SS rigs you have to redesign/rethink the whole chain of events.

Most SS rigs have little distortion in the poweramp section and often have a lot wider bandwidth and this is the number one reason why SS rigs get a bad name  *Especially* when chasing the darker blues sounds.

The RSO circuit wipes a lot of high frequency which will go a long way to improve the sound when plugged into SS Amps that have wide bandwidth.

The result will then depend on the rest of the signal chain and how much it changes the freq response. Sadly I have never owns the Amp you mention so it may come out too dark or not dark enough, so it's a case of suck it and see.

Guitar Tone:
Is a culmination of a whole chain of events (Tone shapes) and each section or stage of amplification needs to be worked out so as to enhance each other.

I hope that helps a bit. :tu:

Cheap tools and parts;
go trash every old bit of electronic junk you can lay your hands on as most of the parts you will need can be found on discarded pcbs inside the land fill junk.

I have draws full of junked pcbs from trash bins.

So go find that breadboard and get cracking building stuff. :dbtu:

And SORRY there is no fast way to good design you need to build some things first.
You can get lucky sometimes and find something that works perfect first time but more often than not it is a slow and steady process.

I just spent several months building a monster stand alone pedal that does all things (an Yes it's got a Triode inside) but now that it is built I can see that I've missed a few lurking issues    oh well back to the bench and bread board for a few modifications.
Have fun and you can save money long term. wink.

Phil.

[QReuCk]

As pointed out by others, trying to replicate tone strategies that were used with tube amps is not likely to yield convincing results. Using a "magical" tube preamp is likely to not do the trick either. So what are your options?
- first thing is to realise that SS amps are a lot better amplifiers in a strict meaning. They will do a far better job at replicating (louder) whatever you feed them with. So work on your playing technique and consider plugging a guitar that has a natural tendency to sound "warm" rather than inserting in your chain units that were design to push a tube amp doing what a tube amp is supposed to do (that is adding some warmth where there wasn't).
- second thing is chose carefully your clipping stage. Try to find some "soft clipping" circuit. It will probably be better than a hard clipping one for your needs. You can also go the asymetric way if you like that, although it should be noted that push pull tube amps do not clip asymetrically (single ended tube preamps do that though).
- third, don't underestimate the power of filtering. The good way to do it is to significantly filter some of the frequencies before the clipping stage and to boost them back later. That enables you to actually chose what part of the signal is clipped. That's of a great help to avoid generating overtones that will be either close but not strictly equal to some harmonics of other notes you might play at the same time (generating intermodulation distortion) or out of key (generating something not pleasing either)

I'm not really good at understanding schematics, but maybe the RSO presented here does just that (second and third)?