Want budget clean sound + reliability without modeling !@#$%

[BigPolishJimmy]

I'm looking to downsize my rig yet upgrade my sound.  Currently I'm running stereo with a Peavey Bandit 112 transtube w/Sheffield speaker on on side, and a Laney 1/2 stack with a Bogen CHB50 tube head on the other.  It sounds ok, well pretty good actually, but it's a bit much to be dragging around.  I'm getting older, these amps are getting heavyer 

The bandit is still in good enough shape to be knocked around going to shows, the Bogen on the other hand is a bit long in the tooth. The 1/2 stack has to go, I might break it down into 2 2x12 cabs, or a bunch of 1x12 cubes.   Since I mainly play clean, and I'm the only guitarist, I never push these amps beyond 3.  It seems to me that perhaps some smaller amps might do the trick. 

I went to my local GC and played some of the newer offerings.  I really liked the VOX Valvetronix amps, in specific the  80-watt version with the 12" speaker.  I don't think I need that kind of wattage, but the 12" speaker offered a much fuller sound at the same levels.  Aside from the $350.00 price tag, the Vox Valvetronix series seem to have a snare hiss problem that develops over time.  I suspect it's all the modeling junk they put in there.  I like electronic junk, don't get me wrong, but I want that stuff in my pedals, not my amp.  I want an amp to simply amplify, and do that well.

I like my tube amp, however I play mostly clean with numerous effects in more of a shoegaze style. The thing that most tube purists rave about--that tube overdrive/distortion--is not really part of my sound, therefore a solid state amp(s) is/are perfect for me.

I want to run at least a stereo setup, but I'm also considering expanding to a 3-amp setup.  This way I can take advantage of stereo ping-pong delay to the far sides of the stage, with a 3rd amp to fade in another swirl.  I know this sounds like it'd be mush, but believe me when done right it sounds lush and beautiful.

I'm not against building what I want, especially if it can save some $$$  I'm a dad with an overbearing mortgage, need I say more.  I have gotten better at soldering on circuit boards.

Any suggestions?

[J M Fahey]

I'm looking to downsize my rig  ....... but I'm also considering expanding to a 3-amp setup.

Well, make up your mind.
Kind of contradicting goals 

[mexicanyella]

My quick knee-jerk answer is to scour local pawnshops or CL for another Bandit or two. They are fairly compact, pretty loud and usually cheap. They fit in small cars. You can drop them down stairs.

Or, hell, if you're really into a three-amp setup and want to downsize too, get two smaller amps (Peavey Envoy? Red-knob solid-state Fenders?) and use your Bandit as the center dry amp or additional swirl amp...?

Two other quick thoughts, not intended to offend at all, but made as a fellow no-budget music dad...

1) where are you gigging that you get enough PA channels to run stereo or three-channel?

2) if you're budget limited, don't get too far into the gear-daydreaming trap. Spend more time coming up with stuff to play on your instrument and less on complicated signal paths. I could do better at taking my own advice here, but hey, maybe you'll be better at following it than I am myself!

(Your three-channel idea is intriguing, though (runs downstairs going mwwaaa hah hah hah))

[BigPolishJimmy]

@ JM Fahey  ...yes it seems a contridiction.  I just don't want to carry a stack any more, plus I want the flexibility when playing gear tetris with the car.

@ mexicanyella  I was just fiddling with a friends Fender Princton Chorus, and it is much lighter than the Bandit.  The reverb is crap, the distortion is crap, but I don't use those anyway, that stuff is on my Zoom G2.  As for the amp, I was able to pull a good sound out of it, except that it needed new speakers back in the 90's and still does ;p  The Fender specials in there fart out at louder volumes.  I suspect the hard rockin of the 90's hurt those poor speakers and they'll never recover.

Also, I swear I read somewhere that Brian May used 3 Vox AC-30s with 2 in stereo and one to bring in for lead work.  I'm no beginner--though I'm no Brian May either--and the complicated signal paths aren't a copout to learning how to play, but rather another vehicle for expression in how you make use of them.  Indeed judicious use is paramount otherwise the muck will flow and stinketh like overzealous phaser.  More does not make better. 

...and the PA channels aren't any more than a 5-piece w/2 guitar players and a frontman who occasionally strums his guitar while posing and such.

[mexicanyella]

The Princeton Chorus had some bigger brothers, but at the moment I can't remember the names of the other amps in Fender's lineup in that era. I think there was one that had something like 160 watts. Plus, if you were running a pair of them you might not need to push it to the fart-out point, even if you kept the stock speakers.

I don't know about Brian May's signal path, but I do know I've seen videos of Queen live and he had a stack of 9 Vox AC30s behind him. Three stacks of three. Who knows how many were actually on, but given that they're only 30 watts and it was a huge outdoor gig, maybe he was using them all. I've read about guys use a pair of amps for stereo FX and a center amp with a dry signal, but I don't know if that would be redundant with clean tones or not. I think that's usually guys that spend a lot of time with a distorted sound (Neal Schon is one guy I remember reading about like that).

I read about Pat Metheny's rig some years back and it was pretty interesting; he had a GSP 2101 preamp or something similar feeding a center amp and two side amps, and I think the side amps had differing delay times (he had real specific times he mentioned, like 13 ms and 26 ms or something) from one another, creating a real-time spatial chorus effect in the room, without actually using a chorus patch in the 2101. I forgot what the amps themselves, or speaker cabinets were though.

It would be interesting to experiment with how many watts/speakers you needed to get your sound across with a band; whether the stereo pair of amps could be lower wattage than the center one, or vice versa, or all the same.

Back to the PA thing...regardless of available channels at the board, what I was getting at was, in your part of the world, are there soundmen that will go along with a guitar player requesting  L/R/Center mics or DIs? And further, if they are willing to accomodate that, are there places to play near you with the PA actually in stereo? Have you experienced the three-amp approach you suggest mixed to mono, and if so, does the combination of stereo FX and a different mono sound blended in justify itself when combined to mono, without the L/R information making it past the first few rows, who could presumably hear the onstage sound along with the PA?

I'm leery of the Valvetronix amps and the Line 6 stuff I've tried. Some of this might be in my head, but I felt like I could get a tone that sounded good, but the amp's dynamic response was not what I wanted. If you're not into working the edges of a distorted sound, this may not matter to you, but from where I'm coming from, I endorse a non-modeling approach.

[phatt]

I'm looking to downsize my rig  ....... but I'm also considering expanding to a 3-amp setup.

Well, make up your mind.
Kind of contradicting goals 

+ 1 . LOL I noticed that also but did not want to be rude.. winky.

re Valvetronics stuff;
How to waste a Valve and make it sound worse than a cheap SS rig. :duh

Re speaker farting out = you have too much low frequency is entering the power stages.
Or you just have a crap amp.

(Just some observations from a bloke who has played and built stuff for many years)

Phil.

[J M Fahey]

Really my first reaction was (and still is); get another Bandit.
Or 2, but please explain better your signal path.
How do you go from a single guitar to 3 different signals?
I mean different enough to justify the hassle of carrying 3 separate amps, wiring them, spreading them on stage and in any place larger than a small Pub/Club getting them properly re-amplified in a *true* stereo PA.
Trust Bandits 3 times as much as similar Fenders and 20 times as much as new Chinese stuff.
0% or more of the weight lies in the enclosures.
MDF and similar cheap materials are *heavy*.
If you dare, you can build new enclosures from good plywood, not too thick (I use 15mm and if pressed 10mm front baffles and 6 or 8 mm backs) to save a lot of weight.
I have built such light yet strong enclosures for touring customers who didn't want to overpay on air freight.
You needn't even cover/tolex them, marine grade varnish is excellent and "visible wood" cabinets look very good onstage.
If replacing speakers one option are Jensen MOD 1270 , (light and loud), C12N (somewhat heavier) or search the Eminence catalog for the most efficient ones, to maximize your punch.
If you dare ($$$$) go for the ultralight Jensen with Neodymium magnets.

[mexicanyella]

I would like to know the 1 guitar/3 amps signal path too. Also, I did not realize the difference in reliability between something like a Peavey Bandit and a Fender SS amp from that era was so large. Good to know.

[BigPolishJimmy]

Honestly, I haven't figured out the 3rd amp thing yet.  I suppose some sort of splitting device beyond a simple 'Y' adapter is necessary.  Perhaps something like:  http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/spltr2.gif 

Run the signal splitter first from the guitar, then one side goes to my Zoom G2 which has stereo outputs that I run to each side of the stage via a Hosa Stereo breakout adapter.  Here the Stereo Chorus and Ping-Pong delay settings of the G2 do their magic on the larger scale.  The third Amp probably will be center-ish, or on m side pointing at the other amp's PA mic If I can't get the tech to mic everything up. 

I'm in southwest Michigan, and play original music, the clubs that allow this are few and small.  I can't control the stereo-ness of the club mix, but I can control what I bring to the room.  The stereo setup does make a difference in practice, you feel the music around you.  It's like a big musical hug.

[mexicanyella]

I've been intrigued with the idea of bringing one amp in or out of the mix by feeding it a varying amount of signal with a volume pedal. Like, in my case, pulling a signal from my little Peavey's line out (that amp is kind of my central tone reference point) and feeding the line signal through a volume pedal into something else's FX return jack (or, really, the Peavey's line out signal is tame enough to go into an instrument input if you watch that input's gain level and use your ears).

This brings up interesting possibilities of where to put the volume pedal; if I put it between the "tone amp" and the "slave amp", I always have the particular tone and just vary its volume. If I put the volume before the "tone amp," I control the overall volume and how clean or dirty the signal is, according to where the volume pedal is in its sweep.

I haven't tried either yet, because I need to replace the pot in my volume pedal and never seem to find the time. But when I do, I think I'll end up putting it after the tone amp, because I like to control clean/dirty by my picking intensity and guitar volume knob position.

If you're more into clean amps reproducing multi FX, I suspect you're more comfortable switching sounds with your feet.

[BigPolishJimmy]

I currently run a volume control through the control input of my Zoom G2.  I'm probably going to sound like a shill for Zoom, but I bought my volume pedal to use with my Zoom 2020 player back in the 90's and for a plastic pedal I'm surprised at how well it has held up.  I tell you though, I miss the interface of the 2020, it was a lot easier to use, these little knobs and print are terrible when you hit middle age.   

I didn't mention it in my previous post, but a volume pedal on the 3rd amp is what I'd use.  I had at one time an extra volume pedal that worked well, but I foolishly sold it because I wasn't using it at the time, now I'll have to buy another one.   I do like the zoom pedal in the control setting with it's stereo cable more than running it inline as a passive volume pedal.  I can't tell you why, but it just seems more responsive from the control position, plus I can run it as a wah if I want to, though I never do.

Also, yes you are right, one has to be comfortable using your feet as part of the dance in creating sound with volume swells.  It's a little like finding the sweet spot with a wah pedal, you can use a wah right away, but it takes practice to learn how to make it talk.

[mexicanyella]

This is maybe getting away from the intended direction of this thread, but I am intrigued by your approach and if you ever have any recorded examples of you putting this rig to work, I'd love to hear them. I've never been a foot-oriented signal-switcher myself, but I can appreciate the sound of other people doing it, and reading about how other people get inspired to create different sounds is fascinating to me.

[BigPolishJimmy]

The suggestion of getting another Bandit might just be the simple solution to this thread   so I'm not worried about turning in another direction.

I'm a little hesitant to post this because these are very rough practice tracks done with just a couple cheap mis and overdubbed vox in places. The playing is a bit sloppy, because we were still in the process of figuring out what goes where. Also, just one side of my stereo mix is recorded, so I don't know if this is even helpful.

We're in the process of recording right now, so hopefully I'll replace these with much better recordings.   In any case, my current band is called The Janis Thorn and some clips are located here:     http://www.reverbnation.com/thejanisthorn

[mexicanyella]

No shame in those tracks! I gave them a quick sample-listen on each, on the crappy speakers of my wife's computer, so far and will check them out more later. But for whatever my opinion's worth, the important part is already there (in time, in tune) and mix issues can always be fixed, or just re-recorded. And these mixes are kind of fun anyway. I like how the guitars aren't so gained-out that they fill every sonic space available. There's space around the drums and bass and vocals, which to me sounds more like real life live bands. You may have used cheap mics, but  you can hear an actual room there around the instruments, so it sounds real.

I liked the first track, "Game Face," right off. The half-time feel appealed to me and the vocals seemed reminiscent of David Bowie, Iggy Pop and the guy that sung on the "Deconstruction" CD from the early 90s...with Dave Navarro on guitar and I think Eric Avery singing...? I like the cleanish guitar turning to the slightly dirtyish guitar as the choruses came in and you hit it harder...that's the kind of grit I like to use too, for the most part.

I liked the way "Wormhole" was in six, with a lot of space and sustainy sound mixed back amongst the prominent drums, too. I'd like to hear more when your recordings are finished. Interesting stuff.

It's an assumption, but what I hear here suggests to me that you could do what you need to with a couple of Peavey Bandits, or other smaller Bandit siblings in multiple. My experience with these amps is that you can stay in the clean channel, but with middle settings on the pre gain and high settings on the post gain, and get a loud almost clean sound with a bit of breakup from the preamp and the speaker, and it's not a fiddly set of controls to get this one elusive sound. You can play extended chords with some clarity and you can also whack it hard on double-stops and get a little crunch in there if you want. If you step on a clean signal boost pedal in front of the amp (I use a DOD FX10 Bi-FET preamp) it makes the circuit go nuts and get all loose, exciting and sustainy for solos but without sounding like a metal distortion pedal. Maybe there's a clean signal boost, or compression/signal boost, function in your Zoom unit?

Anyway, yeah...older Peavey combo(s). Cheap, reliable, good preamp design for this kind of thing, to my ear.

[BigPolishJimmy]

Thanks for the complements.  When I listen to it, I hear every mistake in fingered notes, and not-quite perfect attack, but we're all our own worst critics.

I think the zoom has a patch-level setting that might do what you're suggesting.  I already have the level set pretty high, any more might kill me with solo practice with the headphones on.  The one mic we used for my guitar was actually on the Bandit, so that's a good example of the sound I get from it.