Hey Everyone,
I have been playing with a avri 52 tele through my fender frontman 212r 100watt 2x12 amplifier. This amp is now having terrible tone and the speakers sound terrible at loud sounds. The Distortion is only good for death metal. Does anyone know what speakers would fit and work well with this amp (I play classic rock, rock, BLUES, funk, and I would like some great clean sounds)? Also, does the amp have anything else that could help the tone? Thanks!
JL
You could attack the problem on 2 fronts.
1) since this is a mids-starved/scooped amp, you can upgrade to middy (and very loud) Celestion Vintage 30's.
2) You can build a good preamp, and send it via the effects loop return or power amp in, driving it directly, not passing through the Frontman preamp.
3) What do you intend to play? Obviously not thrash metal!!!!
I intend to play mostly blues, rock, classic rock. I still want to have some great cleans for playing funk and melodic styles (Even Some Country :)). I have all sorts of genres I want to play. So would the preamp do anything because my pedals I have (Sd 1, ds 1, rp155, and crybaby wah {Not in that order}). Would it help? I also checked into the speakers, and I dont think I like the vintage 30s as much but I sent Weber an email. Are there any speakers that would fit my Specs needed to fit my amp to work? I am new to the whole matching a speaker to an amp
Quote from: NewGuy101 on January 03, 2011, 07:37:01 AM
I intend to play mostly blues, rock, classic rock. I still want to have some great cleans for playing funk and melodic styles (Even Some Country :)). I have all sorts of genres I want to play. So would the preamp do anything because my pedals I have (Sd 1, ds 1, rp155, and crybaby wah {Not in that order}). Would it help? I also checked into the speakers, and I dont think I like the vintage 30s as much but I sent Weber an email. Are there any speakers that would fit my Specs needed to fit my amp to work? I am new to the whole matching a speaker to an amp
As long as you get the same ohm rating as the stock speakers and get something with at least 50w per speaker you will be all set. I'd say that your stock preamp is probably fine for you. If you really feel after new speakers you can't get the sound you want, remember that building a new preamp isn't a crazy idea if you are an electronics junky and love soldering and playing with circuits - to a novice it could be quite daunting.
Rod Elliot's Project 27 preamplifier is simple and quite Fendery; as in old Fenders, not Frontman and the like.
Good cleans, little distortion on its own, just enough for Blues, you increase it at will with your pedals.
*Definitely* not buzzy , compared to your actual preamp.
Rod sells the boards for a fair low price, and includes instructions, so you are covered.
You will need some cabinet to mount it or make it like a pedal and have it at your feet, in your pedalboard.
As of speakers, you may also consider Eminence Legends, excellent sound for a fair price.
The 1218 will be the warmest one.
Good luck.
Quote from: J M Fahey on January 03, 2011, 11:01:32 AM
Rod Elliot's Project 27 preamplifier is simple and quite Fendery; as in old Fenders, not Frontman and the like.
Good cleans, little distortion on its own, just enough for Blues, you increase it at will with your pedals.
*Definitely* not buzzy , compared to your actual preamp.
Rod sells the boards for a fair low price, and includes instructions, so you are covered.
You will need some cabinet to mount it or make it like a pedal and have it at your feet, in your pedalboard.
As of speakers, you may also consider Eminence Legends, excellent sound for a fair price.
The 1218 will be the warmest one.
Good luck.
Do you really think it would make a big difference as opposed to using the stock frontman preamp though? Some difference, sure, but a big enough one that most people would even notice?
As Far as I have been able to tell....Fenders "special design" 12 inch speakers (as in Hot rod deluxe etc) ARE emminence basic line AKA Legend. Fender just rates them at lower wattage...Not sure but the Stock speakers night not be that different than a Legend.
Yes, it's something like that.
In fact, Eminence makes the "house brand" for most amp makers, who just glue their labels.
They have thousands of OEM speaker models.
A few of them are sold direct to the public under the "Legend" brand, but there are *many* which do not.
For example, their very popular "best of the cheapest" 12", with a 38mm Voice Coil, 112mm by 10mm ceramic magnet, is used in tons of Fenders, Crates, Peaveys, etc. , and is *not* part of the Legend line.
Incredibly good for the price, but not on the same level of the Legends.
The Frontman might have these, if US/Mexican made, but if Chinese made (as the FM series) it will probably have a Chinese one.
Quote from: J M Fahey on January 03, 2011, 03:25:03 PM
Yes, it's something like that.
In fact, Eminence makes the "house brand" for most amp makers, who just glue their labels.
They have thousands of OEM speaker models.
A few of them are sold direct to the public under the "Legend" brand, but there are *many* which do not.
For example, their very popular "best of the cheapest" 12", with a 38mm Voice Coil, 112mm by 10mm ceramic magnet, is used in tons of Fenders, Crates, Peaveys, etc. , and is *not* part of the Legend line.
Incredibly good for the price, but not on the same level of the Legends.
The Frontman might have these, if US/Mexican made, but if Chinese made (as the FM series) it will probably have a Chinese one.
Learning something new everyday around here.
QuoteThe Frontman might have these, if US/Mexican made, but if Chinese made (as the FM series) it will probably have a Chinese one.
OK I've mainly worked on more of the Tube amps...and Ilive near Nogales which is half in Mexico half US. It would probably be wise to check for manufacturer #s before ordering speakers though! I have run accross a quite a few "Hot Rod" and "VM" deluxes with fender special design labels that are identical to legend 12s. Could be a local thing?? The FMs I've come accross have all had speakers changed too though! Here...usually for Jensens. course this is a predominately "country" area.
The mid-class Fenders will have mid-line Eminences, the ones in the same range as the Legends.
Some Custom Shop models for big name artists will have whatever's needed to please them, after all the investment comes back 1000 times in increased sales and brand reinforcement.
They may use expensive Eminences (think Redcoats, Patriots, etc.), Webers, Celestions, whatever.
Eric Clapton uses (among other things) custom made "Low Power Twins" with Tone Tubby Hemp Cone speakers.
The cheap Eminences I mentioned are used in SS Princetons, Special112, Performers, etc.
Mind you, they *do* work !!! Of course they can be upgraded, that's why your friends replace them with Jensens.
Eminences can be easily recognized by their trademark stamped frame, with reinforcing ribs in the arms' centerlines, they are always painted black, by the electrophoretic process, (they also stamp truck parts), the magnets and polepieces are also painted black, the magnet cover disk has a small hole, needed to hang it in the water based paint tank, they usually have a small strip label fixed to the magnet, etc.
Once you've seen one, they are easy to recognize.
Keep in mind this is an FM212R, a Fender entry level product. it is on the do not repair list. It is very doubtful any parts in it are not from China. If Eminence has a Chinese plant supplying the Fender plant, so be it, but until I see as 67 on the speaker, I won;t believe it.
Quote from: Enzo on January 04, 2011, 02:42:33 AM
it is on the do not repair list.
I don't even have a do not repair list. I'll try to fix pretty much anything within reason. I see a lot of good in those 212 amps, heck, at minimum they have a decent cab that you could use as a chassis for a new amp project of your own.
Hi joecool, what Enzo means is that *Fender* has them in the "do not repair* list, meaning they won't send you some parts plus paying you $50 to fix it. They'll rather send you a new one.
Chilling. :'( :'(
The day Eminence sets up a plant in China, will be a very sad day for American industry , and America in general.
They are one of the very few who keep the flag up.
Oh well.
Quote from: J M Fahey on January 04, 2011, 09:22:36 AM
Hi joecool, what Enzo means is that *Fender* has them in the "do not repair* list, meaning they won't send you some parts plus paying you $50 to fix it. They'll rather send you a new one.
Chilling. :'( :'(
The day Eminence sets up a plant in China, will be a very sad day for American industry , and America in general.
They are one of the very few who keep the flag up.
Oh well.
That's sad that Fender would rather ship a whole new amp than fix it. Wonder what happens to all the "junk" ones. I'd gladly take them off someone's hands.
I still try to buy American made products, when I can't I will go to Canadian or Mexican made (in that order). After that it doesn't much matter to me, although stuff made in the UK does rank higher than others across the pond.
This is one of the reasons I'm looking at a Richmond guitar as opposed to a PRS-SE (can't afford a regular PRS). As for amps, I'm going to stick with making them myself...how much more American can it be? lol
I for one can't afford the "American made" versions of some guitars I want to use (one's I used on my album would have cost 9000+. I learned to repair guitars and set up a shop so I could do so. I've made my steel and two of the guitars I record with so far.
That aside Carvin is mostly US made. Also Fender Mexican products are a good idea. Every Mexican that can get decent work is one less dying crossing the desert where I live. Had some knock on the door late last night apparently in trouble and asking for food water and for us to call the "migras" It got cold here in the desert this week.
The Fender amps or at least their chassis broken show up often on auction sites. I bought several for my grandkids often nothing to fix except jacks or blown output transistors. (I've got an FM65 on the way now and have bought 25r amps for 9Dollars.)
Quote from: bry melvin on January 04, 2011, 11:52:18 AM
I for one can't afford the "American made" versions of some guitars I want to use (one's I used on my album would have cost 9000+. I learned to repair guitars and set up a shop so I could do so. I've made my steel and two of the guitars I record with so far.
That aside Carvin is mostly US made. Also Fender Mexican products are a good idea. Every Mexican that can get decent work is one less dying crossing the desert where I live. Had some knock on the door late last night apparently in trouble and asking for food water and for us to call the "migras" It got cold here in the desert this week.
The Fender amps or at least their chassis broken show up often on auction sites. I bought several for my grandkids often nothing to fix except jacks or blown output transistors. (I've got an FM65 on the way now and have bought 25r amps for 9Dollars.)
What auction sites are you using? eBay? The Richmond guitar I'm interested in is the Empire, it sells for about $500 USD. Pretty good deal if you ask me, and it is made in Canada in a small town about 4 1/2 hours from my home in Maine.
I use ebay and one local here in AZ sponsored by a TV station. I also get broken stuff from Guitar Center Tucson and Superpawn which although is in Tucson also puts stuff on ebay.
For people here that want low power home amps for starter project riceagemusic often sells lots of 4 or more guitars and Fender Epiphone etc paractice amps on ebay. Good source for starting projects. The also sell guitars that can be repaired...lot of broken headstocks bad neck sets etc. Titebond and homeade jigs and a steam jet can salvage a lot of guitars.
Sorry. yes, the amps are certainly repairable to an individual. I mention this only to point out that there are not going to be ANY premium parts in the amp. Fender considers them disposable. I don;t know what they do with them, all I know is the call tag for the dud sends it to Canada. I am in Michigan which is very close to Ontario, so someone in Texas could conceivably send them elsewhere. I seem to recall someone buying dead amp electronics by the pallet, possibly from fender, but I don;t know. I have no interest in obtaining bulk blown stuff to fix and resell. it might pay off for someone motivated.
The economics is simple, it costs Fender less to replace the amp than to pay me to fix it.
In the late 90's, Import Music, the official Argentine importer of Marshall, Peavey, and many others, stopped paying Marshall (don't ask), and the service backup, specially parts, dissapeared.
They asked me to "improvise, do whatever you can" to repair their stuff.
I wasn't much interested because I prefer designing and building, but told them I might take it if they set up batches for me.
They called me when they had about 50 Valvestate 8080 in a warehouse.
After 3 or 4, problems started repeating themselves, I "almost" didn't need to measure, just replace parts, sort of.
I repaired all 50, in a single day, it was a good deal both for me and Import Music.
*Maybe* that guy in Canada is doing something similar, then selling them as refurbished or through EBay.
It pays if you spend very little time on each one; parts are not the problem.
What were the problems?: mostly cracked PCBs close to pots, switches and jacks; a few burnt outputs where I replaced the "unavailable" BDV something or *T "Marshall" with TIP14x, a couple unavailable (way back then) M5401, where I "stole" the one used to switch Reverb to replace a channel switching one, replaced it with 1/2 TL072, "dead bug" mounted, and added a FET to accomplish the actual switching.
Oh well.
Quote from: J M Fahey on January 05, 2011, 08:49:25 AM
In the late 90's, Import Music, the official Argentine importer of Marshall, Peavey, and many others, stopped paying Marshall (don't ask), and the service backup, specially parts, dissapeared.
They asked me to "improvise, do whatever you can" to repair their stuff.
I wasn't much interested because I prefer designing and building, but told them I might take it if they set up batches for me.
They called me when they had about 50 Valvestate 8080 in a warehouse.
After 3 or 4, problems started repeating themselves, I "almost" didn't need to measure, just replace parts, sort of.
I repaired all 50, in a single day, it was a good deal both for me and Import Music.
*Maybe* that guy in Canada is doing something similar, then selling them as refurbished or through EBay.
It pays if you spend very little time on each one; parts are not the problem.
What were the problems?: mostly cracked PCBs close to pots, switches and jacks; a few burnt outputs where I replaced the "unavailable" BDV something or *T "Marshall" with TIP14x, a couple unavailable (way back then) M5401, where I "stole" the one used to switch Reverb to replace a channel switching one, replaced it with 1/2 TL072, "dead bug" mounted, and added a FET to accomplish the actual switching.
Oh well.
Sometimes your experience overwhelms me, Juan. You make it sound like it's no big deal doing all those repairs.
I've had to play through one of these before... The clean channel isn't that bad but
the speakers are really upper midrange spikey. I've had to keep the treble at 2. I'm not a fan of those fender or PV Eminence speakers myself. You could for really cheap money put a low pass filter before the speakers to tame some of that harsh high end. I've done it before to SS amps, it will work. Figure a cutoff frequency of 3k or so. This article is from a recording mag and it's for an 8ohm load, you'll have to calculate for a 4ohm load:
THE FILTER FACTOR
Guitar amp purists have their speaker faves for good reason: They can drastically affect the amp tone. Some are bright while others are warm and mellow. This next pair of mods will tame any harsh-sounding guitar amp simply by applying readily available crossover components. Do you see where I'm going with this? Not much fidelity is needed from a "full-range" 10-inch woofer, so I installed a passive 6dB/octave filter — half of a two-way crossover network. I made note of the values needed to cover a frequency range between 1.8 and 4 kHz, and then found the nearest standard inductor at www.mcminone.com (part number 50-3019), a "choke" in the form of a 0.5-milliHenry (mH) air-core bobbin inductor.
There's a handy online crossover calculator at www.the12volt.com/caraudio/crosscalc.asp#cc, a car audio Website. After some ciphering, I determined the roll-off would begin around 2.5 kHz, so that 5 kHz would be down 6 dB. You'd think this was too low, but it was very effective and made the mic choice much less critical.
The schematic is available on the Fender website. You could mod the preamp, change the slope and response of the tone stack, roll some different opamps in. I like BurrBrown opa2607 in my PV SS amps. It's all up to what you want to do and how much time you want to put into it. Fender is cheap they don't want to pay to fix them, doesn't mean they can't be fixed.
Hi, joe cool, thanks, you'll make me blush.
The key here is that they were all "the same" amplifier, same version, everything, and problems repeat a lot.
The problem was diagnosing the first few.
The overwhelming quantity were cracked tracks *just* where they reach the pot/switch/jack pad.
They had set the PCB drawing program to very thin traces, good in PC motherboards or VCRs but not on Guitar amplifiers.
JCM900 also had the same problem, although their boards were somewhat better mounted.
Fenders from that era too (M80, etc.).
Typically the round solder pad receives molten solder; when it cools it contracts and tries to make the pad smaller, creating pull against the colder, thin track, which to boot reaches the pad at a right angle, forming two "arrowheads" pointing to each other. It's very easy for a hairline crack to appear from one to the other.
Worst part is that when you press it with the multimeter probe, it may show continuity because you are slightly bending the board and closing the gap.
Peaveys always used much thicker tracks, also kept hand-drawn PCBs much longer than others.
Curiously, Plexis from that same era did not have that problem, I think they kept using "legacy" board designs, simpler and more reliable.
I always use thick tracks, usually 50 mils; maybe 30 mils minimum for less than 1/2 inch to reach a base on "the other side" of a transistor, 100 mil component pads; 125 or 150 mil ones for external wire connections, etc.
.
Hi mojah. Curiously, Goodmans in their early 70's catalogs suggested using lowpass filters between SS amplifiers and their MI speakers.
If I remember well, they were around 4 or 5 KHz.
Quote from: mojah on January 05, 2011, 02:11:17 PM
I've had to play through one of these before... The clean channel isn't that bad but
the speakers are really upper midrange spikey. I've had to keep the treble at 2. I'm not a fan of those fender or PV Eminence speakers myself. You could for really cheap money put a low pass filter before the speakers to tame some of that harsh high end. I've done it before to SS amps, it will work. Figure a cutoff frequency of 3k or so.
Great first post! Welcome to SSG (although I noticed you actually signed up 2 years ago).
Wow! A lot of responses. I have one question as people talk about the fender preamp. Where is this located because there is a metal cover in the cabinet area that has 2 input spots with a red cable and a white one like you use for a tv. Also, does anyone exactly know what the fender speakers are based off of in this model? I have looked at weber Chicago 12 ceramic speakers that look nice. What is more important, speakers or preamp? What would the preamp plug into? Thanks for answering all the questions1
if you're talking about red and white RCA jacks going to a box in the speaker cabinet area....that is the reverb
If you look at the schematic...the preamp is everyting from the input to where the preamp out and power in jacks are... I don;t have one here currently but if you follow that schematic you can figure out which are preamp parts.
I don't know that the speakers in the amp are "based" upon anything. Well, other than generic "guitar speaker." I suspect they have relatively high efficiancy to make the little amp sound louder without having to make the circuit beefier.
Newguy, The preamp will be on the circuit board mounted inside the chassis. Some other posters have commented on the build quality of the board being fragile. I guess we assume you have some electronics experience. If you haven't like replaced caps on a computer motherboard or modded some stopboxes before practicing on your working amp may not be the best idea.
Why don't you try and borrow a cabinet from somebody and make up a cord to plug it in to try some different speakers out 1st if that is what your gravitating to. A couple of insulated spade crimp connectors to plug into the wiring that goes to your speakers now. You could use on old speaker cord for the 1/4" plug and wire. Tape up the unused pair Different speakers will make the amp sound "different", better is kinda subjective.
If your confident with your soldering/desoldering skills get the schematic from the fender website and go at it. Sockets help a lot. A TL072 opamp starts the preamp out and is pretty much the entire clean channel. Duncan's amp tools will help with the tonestack. There's a ss amp book on this site that's a good read too.
I know I've been a member for a while... I try not to post on old threads (although I've seen a quite few I like) and be a good lurker... Thanks Guys :)
I had gotten a fm212r a while back. I needed a new amp that would be giggable, but I also did not have a budget. I don't care what anyone says, it's a decent amp, especially for the price. I actually ended up getting a second one off craigslist for 100 bucks. Recently, a roommate of mine gave me a cabinet that had Avatar Celestion 30s. I had kept the cabinet around just in case I found a head I wanted, but I really just don't have the extra money laying around to do that (perhaps I would have a head if I stopped getting effects pedals). I put Celestions in one of the amps and was able to do a side by side test. The difference was incredible.
I've never used the onboard distortion, I purchased an Electo Harmonix, English Muff'n tube distortion pedal.
My effects set up is: EHX English Muff'n > Boss GE-7 EQ > BBE Sonic Stomp > Ernie Ball Volume Pedal >Boss Ch-1 Chorus > EHX Stereo Memory Man with Hazarai
Yes, those amps *are* good, and basically the same as other Fenders.
The distortion is somewhat iffy but you solved that.
The difference between a Celestion or "good" Eminence and a cheap generic speaker is astounding, usually the best "mod" you can do for any amplifier.
When Eminence finally offerred their "Texas Heat" model in 4 ohm, I put my electronics in a head configuration and built a seperate cab for the spkr. Sounds great (to me), easy to transport. Nothing wrong with those amps.
Mike
The day I bought my slammer guitar, I tried it out on a 212r, I actually thought the amp sounded pretty good. didn't try the reverb or overdrive,though.