Hello
i know there are one or 2 threads for the 2199 already, but i have some mod questions in
the future where i will use this thread..
I bought the 2199 some days ago, mainly for the speakers (G12K-85) and to use as a 2x12, because
i previously knew that these amps dont sound good. They are playable clean, and even then these models seriously lack presence. The build in overdrive...well i come to that later.
I played the Amp a little for testing purposes and there is an electronic high frequency oscillation.
Bassically on all 3 channels, on the normal not that much but just because this channel doesnt have much highs to start with. When i plug in the mix channel and turn the treble up past 6 and the bright gain up the amp starts to squeal like a dirty pig, the oscillation changes pitch and attitude when i change eq or gain settings. When nothing is plugged in , theres no oscillation, i read somewhere thats because the cliff jacks shunt the signal to ground.
Alright, i opened the piggy up today to find a siemens capacitor roaming free inside the amp housing.
Its C17. Question: on the photos you can see white gunk on 2 green electrolytics and the free space where C 17 belongs. Is this Marshall Factory glue or innards from C17? Why is the Amp still working
without that cap, what is it supposed to do, please understand i have no clue about electronics.
There is some circuit changing on the right side of c17, the leg of one resistor is connected to the one
beneath it and a tantal cap is piggybacked on top of it. I believe this mod is factory because i found 2
pictures of 2199 innards on the web and there is the same modification made.
There must have been someone in there before me because 2 speaker wires which where
originally hardwired to the speakers where modified with a cliff jack mounted inside the chassis.
But i doubt that the cap was loose at this point. I dont really see any burnmarks at spot C17, maybe
on one side i dont know. Could the Cap be torn off while shipping? because the seller typically for
old stinky Marshalls only wrapped a little cardboard around and called it a day :duh
Also the schematic says C17 1000microfarad/ 25volt and the one found in the Amp saz 2500/35
but i suspect this is the Marshall factory C17 because i have other 2199s with the same cap.
(http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/1933bd-1469206502.jpg) (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=1933bd-1469206502.jpg)
(http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/fa916d-1469206966.jpg) (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=fa916d-1469206966.jpg)
(http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/1f9af1-1469207108.jpg) (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=1f9af1-1469207108.jpg)
(http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/c73549-1469207224.jpg) (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=c73549-1469207224.jpg)
(http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/2045d3-1469208166.gif) (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=2045d3-1469208166.gif)
Regards
It is simply a filter cap on the power supply, and with it out, the preamp has no decoupling and instability could easily result. Replace the cap. If the schematic says 1000uf, and you found 2200uf, I'd imagine the schematic is an earlier revision level. I can see the factory deciding 2200uf worked better. But even if they didn't do it, it is a perfectly reasonable change for someone to make, so install a new 2200uf and move on.
The white stuff is just glue.
If you don't understand electronics, that cap is like a shock absorber in your car. If one of your shocks fell off, the car would still drive, but that wheel would become less stable. Without this cap, the circuit still has all the voltages, but there is no longer that cap to stabilize the positive voltage for the preamp circuit.
The cap probably just vibrated enough that the wires snapped. Like if you bend a paper clip enough times it will break in two. That is why they glue some parts down on boards, to prevent them vibrating enough to break their wires.
Thanks for your help, i will replace the cap with a 2200uf/63v and hope
that it remedies the oscillation.
Since i thought about modding the amp to get an overall brighter and more present sound,
should i start with a different cap value at c17 or ist this strictly a decoupling cap
which hasnt much impact on the overall sound?
I know at the moment that i should up the c5 value from 0.22uf to at least 2.2uf to thicken up the
bright channel. Bassically it will become exact like the normal channel...this is not much of an
improvement on these amps. What i want to achieve is that more highs from my guitar reach
the speaker, these amps are dark, dull and somewhat nonpresent sounding.
The Distortion sounds ok if you set the gain on the verge of breakup...more than that and
it gets an unpleasant mess if you play more than 1 note...but i will explain that with soundfiles
if i get into the modding thing.
The other 2299(same with reverb and much more gain) has a problem with radio interference and overall loud noise floor...
but only on the normal or bright input...the mix input is reasonably quite and sounds not too bad up
to a certain preamp-gain setting where it gets harsh and muddy.
Unfortunately no schematics available for the reverb version.
I would curious why R29 was modified and it might be best to put amp back to stock before any modding. The idea is to get it back to how it was designed and then think about modding at that point. Also, TR3 looks like a chunk of it has blown out by the looks of the pic.
R29 has not been modified, it matches what the schematic shows.
I would guess there was an error or change in the board layout that had to be corrected by moving one end of R29. If R29 was placed as the silkscreening shows, it would connect to TR8, rather than TR7.
So no problem with how it is now.
The little cap that has been added across R28 is probably dealing with an oscillation issue, so that should be left alone also.
Agree^^^^^
"Back to stock" is a HUGE assumption on your part. Presumably the amp worked fine until whatever failure, so leave the change alone.
C17 is a filter cap and is not going to make the amp brighter or darker.
Tone stack looks a little odd for a Marshall. Try C13:470pF, R24:33K, C14:.022uF, C15:.022uF.
With 25V rails I would expect an 8 Ohm total load for 30W. Speakers should be 2X 16 Ohm.
Quote from: g1 on July 23, 2016, 03:55:06 PMR29 has not been modified, it matches what the schematic shows.
I would guess there was an error or change in the board layout that had to be corrected by moving one end of R29. If R29 was placed as the silkscreening shows, it would connect to TR8, rather than TR7.
Sorry about that one. It was late when I was looking at the picture and trying to match it up to the schematic. I should not have assumed it was not stock that way and thanks for setting my comment straight.
Thank you all for the good tips, i will report back when the cap is installed.
At the moment i still test the sound of these amp, today i rewired the speakers on
one of the 2199 combo with an speaker output jack so i can use it with other amps.
i found out that the to my ears kind of unpleasant sound is partly due to the 2x12 construction...maybe im just not used to it but it sounds kind of muddy to me.Maybe they need more Volume to open up the treble frequencies like my 4x10 Marshalls, they have a good treble even at low volumes...i have more testing to do before i decide to mod these 2199 amps, i have to try the 2199 with a different cab to really decide.
plus they all sound different to begin with( i have 3 , got them cheap)
At the meantime has anyone tips on the grounding issue (remember the radio signal and the higher noise floor is only on the normal input and the bright input..not on the mix input, this one has no unexpected noise and or radio interference)
yes the resistor mod is bassicaly like its in the schematic, i saw some of these amps who had the mod and some dont i guess its marshall factory, different revision.
i discovered a picture of one with a blue circuit board (made for us market)...never seen this in a marshall. i guess its a blues amp after all 8).
(http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/9aa0b0-1469483145.jpg) (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=9aa0b0-1469483145.jpg)
Also i would like to understand how the overdrive in this amp is achieved.
i read an article from rg keen on different ways to create distortion, but to be honest
even this was hard for me to understand even a little, im no technical guy.
There is no Led diodes or op-amps in these amps like later marshalls, so is it like overloading
transistors which create a cutoff for the signal or compression?
i like the sort of "crispy, krackly crinkly not really sustaining type of distortion", sounds like ripping
or crumbling paper with your hands, but on these amps it gets too harsh
at a certain pre-gain setting.
Quote from: solidstate2199 on July 25, 2016, 05:44:41 PM
(remember the radio signal and the higher noise floor is only on the normal input and the bright input..not on the mix input, this one has no unexpected noise and or radio interference)
Might be because the mix channel is the
only input that has some series resistance, those two 68k resistors (R1&R2), they help to stop RF interference.
Also might be a design issue lurking,, this circuit might benefit from more decoupling. (See My Edit of the circuit) I recall our dearly departed friend
Roly noting that when you have many stages in series like this you can have instability problems.
The signal bleeds through the supply if it is not decoupled enough.
You may have to cut a track to do it.
Better minds might like to add comment about that. 8|
Regarding the OD or lack of. :'(
This amp will never do Valve amp crunch, you will spend forever trying to get that effect from this circuit ,, it's not designed for that.
If you want OD then buy an OD pedal,, they come in many flavors. :cheesy:
Other observations,, if the amp is too muddy then C1 and C4 could be replaced with much lower values,, try 22nF or even 10nF.
If too bright then a small value cap across the signal might help to tame the edge? I'll have to research that problem later.
Phil.
Hi Phil
thanks for the thoughts , keep them coming i will refer to all of them when (if) modding
time comes. Still evaluating the Speakers/cabinet size.They are sized like the 1936 series
minus the Amp on top.Idk they just dont sound right no matter what amp i try, something happens in the upper mids to highs which mud up the sound.
As for design flaw, its only one of the amps which has the noise and radiofrequency interference,
on the other 2 every inputs work fine.
I think these amps where designed for giving the nice overdriven crunch. It was the mid 70s,
nobody would have böught a clean only amp these days, Marshall knew exactly what they wanted,
and to my ears the got pretty close, these amps sound definately like ripping Marshalls, it just needs fine tuning. Marshall ad of one of the 70s transistor heads said " transistorized Head specially
designed to give you the sound Marshall is known for" something like that. They were going for the sound. Off course, it wont be transformed into a JMP2203, mostly the bottom end will
lack, but the basic sound is there,the roundness of the notes and such, just the "whiplashing" has to go.
Unfortunately, im no pedal guy-at all. I noticed that the physically smaller everything gets, the
more small and compressed squished it sounds... i know lots of people dont believe this and say
only component value counts...to my ears if you want big sound you need bigger sized components.I dont like fiddling with other stuff than the amp itself while playing.
Second this Amp hates pedals. I really have to put up some soundfiles so you can hear what im talking about, if you turn the preamp gain up to high it sounds " whiplashing ".
I wonder if the 2195 and 2098 heads have the same problem, i heard one demo on youtube and
there the problem doesnt exist,but its always different if one sits in front the amp. maybe checking the 2199 schematic against the 2195 will help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu3FtoG3Vyo
Thanks guys i appreciate the help.
If by *whip-lashing* you mean very harsh hifreq hash then check C11 (100pF) it rolls off a lot of excess bandwidth. If it's gone open then that would wreak havoc on instability. :duh
The schematic is hard to read values so my simulations maybe way off.
Also make sure the switch contacts are actually grounding when cable is removed other wise that will cause issues.
Phil.
Played around with the 2199 a little.
I now think that the lacking presence of the
Amp is a design "fault" in the preamp section, and
not related with the cabinet or speakers.
I plugged in a Valvestate Head via Effects Output into
the Mix Input of the 2199.
Kept the preamp volume on the 2199 very low to not
overload the Input.
Well now there are enough highs and presence delivered
over the Speakers.
You guys gave me some mod tips on the preamp already, i guess i
will try some.
Bright cap on the Input first and go from there.
If you want to add bright caps the proper way is to connect a .01uF ceramic cap from middle leg of volume pots to corresponding coupling capacitors feeding them, namely C3 and C7 .
If way too much, or amp starts oscillating incontrollably, you can tame them by ading, say, 1k or 2k2 in series with each.
An easy Mod, try it and post results.
Just a thought...if i wanted to go ape crazy on this amp
and had a complete preamp makeover in mind...how
hard would it be?
Following preamp would be the final goal...Marshall 5010
Master Lead from the 1980s.
As opposed to the 70s Master Lead the 5010 is a transistorized
version of a JCM2203, at least it really sounds close, without the
big bottom and with a little more fizz, but its really good,
not like the 2199 Master Leads (hard bag of sh...es).
I guess the power section is almost exactly the same...
could somebody have a look over both schematics?
I only know that the 5010 use Ic-Opamps which make a very
good distortion sound.
5010 schematic
http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/5010.gif
2199 schematic
http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/2199.gif
C21 in the M2199 Circuit is 100uF which means more bass is passing through the power amp.
It also is driving a 2 Ohm load which would likely result in very poor low freq at high volume.
Now the same capacitor on the 5010 circuit is C22 which is 22uF so less bass is passed often giving a clearer sound at high volume. Good idea for most guitar circuits :tu:
Also it drives a more sane 4 Ohm load so it's a far better circuit.
You could just change that Cap and disconnect one speaker in the 2199 and see if it improves. If you do try this also add a zobel network like the 5010 (C23 and R32),,, helps stability. :tu:
Phil.
Hi i want to update my thread because i have bought the 5010 amp
now, which i wanted the 2199 (modded) to sound like.
these amps are day and night. the 5010 has a very classic acdc to 80s
metal rock distortion- you cant do that with stock 2199.
which i really liked about the 2199 was the ability to go from moderate crunchy to
very clean just with the guitar volume, i mean really clean not marshall clean.
i really hoped i could do that with the 5010 to and i have to say that it doesnt do it.
it goes clean(ish) but not that amount. sucks.
here my personal resumee.. i tried many of the 80s and 70s marshall solid states,
infact almost every model, plus the first valvestate 8100 100watt head,
mosfet head, 3203 Artist Hybrid Heads and none of these can do what their tube equals can do (2203/04;2210/05).
Either they plainly sound shitty, feel shitty,no sustain, dont clean up with the volume, are dull, the 8100 doesnt even slightly clean up it just get more mushy till you cant hear it anymore.
i really wanted to have the solid state thing work out for me...but it just doesnt.
i tried fender and vox solid states too, not much better or worse.
maybe its just me but i think i sell all my ss of and get 1 or 2 good old tube marshalls
to end the charade. peavey supreme or xxl i will maybe try out, but i have no good feeling.
i dont want to break loose any tube vs solid state campaign but it seems like it doesnt
work for me. to me the marshall 2203/04 has it all, power, big bottom end,master volume so you can even play it on bedroom volume with preamp all the way up and it sounds better than all (good!) Marshall SS together, roll back the guitar volume and it cleans up very good. even the 2210 channel switcher cleans up as good.
Does anybody know of a solid State amp no matter what maker that does this well,
playing a good distorted rhythm sound roll back and have a nice real clean sound which isnt much much lower in volume than the full on sound?
cheers
There are so many SS amps out there, and they all differ. I think a PV 80s amp will sound very different from a MArshall of the era. You mentioned some later era PV amps, but don't overlook some 80s ones, they are built like tanks, and you like the tone or you don't. If you get a chance to try one, take the time. An old Tuck and roll Kustom sounds pretty good to me, not like others. Sleepers like old Acoustic MIGHT be interesting. Even tube amps have a wide range of sounds. Surely a Fender Twin Reverb sounds nothing like a Marshall 100 watt. SO I'd not dwell on the solid state-ness so much as just looking at various families of amps. Peavey Transtube series amps sound good to me, and they come in a variety of flavors. I don't think Fender can design a distortion amp to save their souls, but I do like the sound or a Princeton Stereo Chorus, so you never know.
Hi SS2199,
Yes without the Magic Compression that comes standard on a lot of Glass amps a lot of SS amps don't really nail the dynamics, especially the smaller models. :'(
Also you need to realize that even the PU's can make a difference to the way the crunch happens.
If the circuit is overly hot then hot wound PU's will make clean roll off even harder to achieve.
You need to consider the PU/ amp combination as they are interdependent. 8|
My setup is tweaked for lower output PU's but If I use a humbucker loaded axe a lot of that touch sensitivity is lost. With really hot PU's ,, no chance of cleanup without a lot of knob turning on the pedals.
I use a compressor which adds to the dynamic Over driven effect.
I've posted a short clip so you can hear how the dynamics work.
The amplifier is all SS clean so it's all done by my pedal board there are no exotic pedals in use only a Fet boost, Boss OS2, Phabbtone, delay, and some spring reverb.
Recorded via the lap top mic so might sound a bit cardboard box in places but should give you an idea of what is possible even without Valves.
No post processing just converted to mp3
I'm only using the guitar volume,, the pedals are preset and not touched.
The guitar is a bitza cheap knock off and the PU's are about the cheapest money can buy,, these come standard on those $199 Strat knock offs the music shops sell.
Regard the Circuit; If I'm reading the right schematic then you could try,,,
Raising the value of R8 (which looks like 470R) on the 2nd opamp as that will back off the drive. (try 1k) I've found that below 500 Ohms can cause instability.
Have fun,,Phil.
Hi Guys,
as always thanks for your tips and suggestions,
much appreciated.
I wanted to give a little update on my initial post
regarding the Marshall 2199 Oscillation problem due to
a nuked out capacitor.
I did the repair the other day, replaced the knocked off capacitor and
et voila! the oscillation is gone.
To my surprise this particular 2199 out of my currently 3 sounds
definitely better than the other two. Nice classic 60s to early 80s
Marshall crunch can be achieved. The sound doesnt get overly harsh
like on the other 2 and all 3 Inputs can be used, even the bright one.
With this model its really hit or miss. One big downfall
is the cabinet construction, its very "beaming" as soon as you step
a little away to the side the perceived sound gets very mushy.
Still, im happy that this one works properly now and doesnt sound
as bad as the other two.
Cheers.
That is why they make "beam blockers".
https://www.tedweber.com/wbb12-4
Easy to install, and they are effective at spreading the sound and killing that ray-gun beam straight out the front.
Thanks for the tip Enzo, :dbtu:
i will try the oldschool duct tape trick or
McGyver me some beamblockers.
Or cut the dust dome off a dead speaker and glue it to a stick.