I have a RG100HT, RG100ES, RG80-112SC and a RGT100ES and all of them make an overly noticeable amount of white noise when you plug effects into the loop. As soon as a plug goes into the effect send actually. I have a rack mount power conditioner that everything is ran through and it is less noticeable with an effects pedal(boss ge-7) as opposed to a rack mount piece(Alesis Quadraverb, Rane pe15, BBE sonic maximizer). If I run it through my Hush IIC I can get alot of the noise out but only if the gate is cranked all the way up. The only other amp I have to check these against is a tubeworks power amp which makes no noise but also has no loop because its a power amp. My next step is going to be to make my own cable set for the rig. Aside from that, maybe the grounds in the house I live in are garbage. Also if I plug any of the effects in, in front of the amp there are no problems. The sound of the eq in the loop as opposed to in front is better imo so I would like to figure this out. I'm missing something. I find it hard to believe 4 different RG series randalls would do the same exact thing. Any info is greatly appreciated, Thanks
I forgot to add the noise is present with nothing in the loop, just not as bad. The loop amplifies it.
Try putting a patch cord from send to return. Is it noisier than without the patch cord in the loop?
I read about doing that and didnt think to try. I will do that when I get home. thanks for the suggestion
ok, finally got a chance to try it and no dice. Same results. Soon as you turn it on it has a hum in the speaker.
Hum or hiss?
Its a hum
Mmmmmhhhhhh , I asked (and still not sure what you mean) because you originally described it as "white noise" .
Please record and post it, with all controls on 0.
Also show how noise appears when you plug an effect into the send jack, with nothing plugged in the return one.
I will do that, thanks
Quote from: Kizzlecake on January 19, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
ok, finally got a chance to try it and no dice. Same results. Soon as you turn it on it has a hum in the speaker.
But what does it do to the noise level (when you have patch cord from send to return)? Is the noise worse than without the cord in the loop?
little or no change. the problem gets worse if you plug in a rack mount component (i.e. alesis quadraverb or rane pe 15)
Then it is the effects unit that is introducing the noise. That is why you get the same problem with the other amplifiers also.
But you said it happens with various different effects units so it may just be the way you have the levels set up for the loop.
Agree with G1,, you simply have way to much gain in the wrong place.
Common problem,, I actually hate efx loops especially series types :-X
You would be better served by plugging EFX in the front end of amp.
Efx loops might look hi teck but they introduce a whole stack of gotchraz if you don't know about gain and where to use it.
Phil.
I could see that being the issue. Makes sense, problem is wanting to utilize the loop because the eq sounds better in the loop than in the front(minus the noise of course). I have been running a wet dry setup and maybe just gonna have to run that with everything out front unfortunately. Thanks for all the suggestions guys.
I own a Quadverb also,, And well aware of how easy it is to dial in too much gain.
add hi gain Amplifier front end and it close to useless at efx loop.
Phil.
There are no level controls for the loop on that amp.
But most FX units will have input and output level controls. Try adjusting them, turn up the input and reduce the output level and see if it helps. Or the opposite, turn down the input and turn up the output.
Also it there are any -10/+4db level switches, they should be at -10 setting.
this is the noise with both gains and masters at zero. its a little quiter with everything atzro but not much
Quote from: Kizzlecake on January 21, 2014, 08:26:48 PM
this is the noise with both gains and masters at zero. its a little quiter with everything atzro but not much
OK I'll try to explain a very simple reality that a lot of guitar players struggle with.
Fire up that super quite power amp you mentioned.
Now go and find every bit of fancy pants rack preamp gear as well as every super dooper TS999999 and plug them all together in series. One after the other.
Now turn all the dials up past half way and engage every one. :duh
I'd lay money on the fact that the hum, buzz, hiss, fizz feedback would be louder than any guitar chord played.
Hi gain + no brains = S**T sound. :-X
Now if you hang around sites like this for long enough you will eventually realize that most modern amps are just old style amps with more gain stages.
Old amps had no Extra channels of added gain,, you did that with pedals. :tu:
Modern Amps are just old amps with pedal circuits inbuilt.
Frankly Few modern (all in one box) designs actually work that well and I've meet many players who end up not using the Hot channels on there rigs
(Insert bootweaked brandname of choise)
and end up resorting back to basic pedal circuits. 8|
Much like building a sky scraper you can't just keep going higher.
The Laws of fizzy things limits how far you can go no matter how much more you throw at it.
In your case all you are doing is amplifying transistor noise, any mains hum would be drowned out by electrons smashing into each other. (Google boltzmans noise)
Most players would think that if you want more distortion you turn up the Gain.
If I told you you can actually get better distortion by turning the gain DOWN You would likely think I don't have a clue about amplifiers. :loco
Well that is exactly how circuits in Trainwreck and Soldano and likely many other makes now do it with triode circuits. You can do similar things with FETs.
Distortion is the easy part,, the TONE SHAPING is the real tricky part to overcome. :grr
Meantime,, As I own a Qverb,, try adjusting the *MIX* section.
Depending what config you are in the mix controls sends level (gain) to different parts of the efx.
Keeping a close eye on levels there can help the dreaded hiss issues you have.
I don't use my Qverb much these days as they are just way to fiddly to work with.
when I do use it, it's in a para efx loop just to add some subtle modulations.
If you own the GT Qverb then even harder to to keep the noise under control.
It bent my brain trying to come to grips with my unit and only made sense when I used software interface to control parameters.
Phil.
alot of good info thanks. I forgot to mentio the sound clip was just the amp at no volumes and nothing in the loop. If you are telling me that is normal than I'll roll with it.
Oh I've heard a lot worse than that. :lmao:
Yes you may have to live with it.
The other option is bypass the whole front end with a better designed preamp and just plug into the return socket.
I gave up on guitar amps and now use my home grown preamp floor pedal which plugs into a power amp.
Phil.
Update.... Figured out the base noise hum is coming from the power transformers, not sure if its cause they are old or junk or what. Bigger question is where to get a replacement. Anyone got any ideas?
Quote from: KizzlecakeFigured out the base noise hum is coming from the power transformers
What draws you to that conclusion?
Pardon me while
I seriously doubt that. Transformers simply don't have any mechanism for generating electrical noise such as in the sound sample.
Acoustic noise due to loose laminations, sure, but
electrical noise? Not unless it's arcing inside and just about to catch fire (which it should have done by the time your read this).
My first impression from the sound sample is that you are hearing mains-borne hash from something like a light dimmer or nearby switch-mode power supply, that it's mains-borne coming
through the power transformer maybe, but not
generated by it.
See if you can find a mains line filter and try the amp powered via that.
Even with the speaker unplugged you can still hear noise from the transformer. Perhaps it is the house, there are a couple dimmer switches in the kitchen. I have tried being plugged on the top floor, bottom floor and the basement and all have the same result. Niw as far as a main line filter I'm not sure what you are talking about but I have tried one of those Ebtech Hum x wall plug deals and it didnt help.
Quote from: KizzlecakeEven with the speaker unplugged you can still hear noise from the transformer.
This is
physical noise I mentioned. There is a loose lamination or winding turn in the transformer that is
reproducing what is coming down the mains, not
creating it.
The light dimmers would be prime suspects, but it could also be from the many modern appliances (even next door) that have switch mode power supplies these days. Light dimmers are prime suspects because they generally have very poor internal noise filtering and are connected to long runs of cable between the dimmer and the light that can act as transmitting antennas, however in your case whatever the source it is almost certainly switching crud coming down the mains and into your amp that way.
Proper line filters (not "surge suppressors") aren't common in shops any more, but many computer and terminal power supplies contain real line filters which can be scrounged from old ones, e.g...
(http://www.tme.eu/html/gfx/ramka_3256.jpg)
See also;
http://www.ozvalveamps.org/mainsfilter.htm (http://www.ozvalveamps.org/mainsfilter.htm)
I don't know exactly what the
Ebtech Hum x wall plug contains, but it's for a different problem, a
ground loop which isn't what you have got here, and isn't a line filter (which wouldn't cure ground loop problems anyway). In fact it seems to be the opposite of a line filter in that it treats the ground but directly connects the active and neutral, where a line filter treats the active and neutral and passes the ground directly through.
{I must remark that while the
Ebtech Hum x may be effective in what it is intended for it is rather dubious from an electrical safety PoV. I very much doubt that it would get type approval in LEN countries such as Australia or the UK, and in fact doesn't even seem to have UL approval in the US. As a soundie and tech I would consider it a band-aid for a basic earth loop problem that should be fixed, not just hidden, particularly at the expense of human safety.}
Makes sense, I also hear the same thing from other lights and things like my surround sound subwoofer I'll try and locate a line filter. Thanks a ton.
http://tesco-online.com/15nw20nw.html
like this guy?
http://www.smarthome.com/4845ACF/Advanced-Control-Technology-AF120-15-Amp-Plug-In-Noise-Filter/p.aspx
or this guy
Ideally the problem should be fixed at source, the thing(s) radiating the crud should be filtered themselves to stop it getting out, but with so many light dimmers &c around it becomes impractical, so the only real option is to pull up the drawbridge and just filter the power to the amp.
Both of the devices you link to might work but they are to address a different problem again, line noise getting into X10 home automation networks. These filter the specific band of frequencies that these systems work on but don't appear to filter down into the audio range which seems to be the cause of your problems. The first one with four outlets and provision for Ethernet filtering seems to be way overkill, and being an X10-specific filter might not help.
This fella appears to be a straight line filter but has much more capacity than you need;
http://www.onfilter.com/products.html?s=20ASF (http://www.onfilter.com/products.html?s=20ASF)
The filter I showed above is a combined power inlet and filter, but these are also available in various filter-only forms intended for internal installation.
Wire ends;
(http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00JvLaNAihQMpw/EMI-Filter-AC-Single-Phase-Series-Filters-FT120-3-.jpg)
Spade ends;
(http://www.newark.com/productimages/standard/en_US/5175582.jpg)
These are generally pretty cheap but do require fitting, either by yourself or by a tech.
that one in the link looks good. i'm looking for a plug in deal if possible. you think this one will suit my needs http://www.smarthome.com/4845ACF/Advanced-Control-Technology-AF120-15-Amp-Plug-In-Noise-Filter/p.aspx
No. You can try it by all means, but don't be too surprised if it doesn't help. It specifically gives "30:1 attenuator ratio on frequencies between 30kHz and 200kHz" and you really want a wide band one that actually covers the audio spectrum.
Quote from: http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/4845ACF_spec.pdfFrequencies less than 80kHz and greater than 200kHz are allowed to pass through the circuit relatively unaffected.
So it's simple to install all right, I just don't think this one (or any X10-specific filter) will do the job for you because it specifically doesn't filter the audio band, which is what you want.
"To every complex problem there is a neat and simple answer - neat, simple, and wrong."
Personally I'd get
one of these (http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-corcom/6ef1f/rfi-power-line-filter-6a-360ua/dp/52K3837?MER=PPSO_N_P_EverywhereElse_None) (buy or ex-equipment) and fit it in
a die-cast box (http://www.newark.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?st=die-cast+box&catalogId=15003&categoryId=800000004801&langId=-1&storeId=10194) with a suitable mains outlet (remembering to ground the box itself). It shouldn't be any more complicated than fitting a mains plug, and the extra effort should result in a cheaper unit that will do a better job.
So that filter mounted in one side of the box. Would I want to put a fuse or breaker in there? And also ground the box with the "third(green) wire? Its been a very long time since I messed with any of this type of house wiring etc. Avionics and Electronic stuff is all I've done in years. Also, I'm not familiar with how many amps my Guitar amp pulls, plus a pedal board and maybe a couple rack items. Is 6 amp going to do the job? Again thanks for the info and your time, always good to brush up on stuff and learn new stuff at the same time.
The box only need to be big enough to comfortably hold the filter and a mains outlet. 6 amps even on 110V is over 600 watts and that should be just about enough to filter a whole band (or you can get a higher current one for a few $'s more if you like).
A 70 watt amplifier should pull about double that flat out, say 150 watts;
150/110 = 1.36amps, so a 6 amp filter should be more than sufficient.
You can certainly fit a switch, fuse/breaker, pilot light, wheels and a sexy paint job if you feel like it. A fuse or breaker can be helpful if some drongo tries to plug a blow heater or the stage lights into it and will stop it burning up.
I'd keep it simple to start with and just get a box big enough to add features later if you feel the need. I only fit pilot lights to stuff like this because it makes for speedy troubleshooting if something stops working on stage; handy but not essential. My big line filter had a number of extras because it was designed to be used with portable generator power systems.
I don't know about the wire lead type but the spade connector type have the ground connected to the filter metal body, so just bolting it inside will ground the box. I assume the wire lead type will also ground the metal case, but check it with your ohmmeter if you use this type.
I've never wired an American mains socket so I don't know if they are marked as Aussie ones are, but you first ohmmeter check is that the plug ground pin goes to the socket ground pin and die-cast box, that the power pins don't transpose between plug and socket; i.e. if you plug it into itself you should have three loops isolated from each other.
Enzo?
well, its cheap enough to be worth trying thats for sure. Thanks again
I've owned 8 Randall RG heads over the years and all of them have a little bit of idle hum to them, i even have a rg100ht with new filter caps and it still hums a tad with all the controls at zero. So this is just a effect of the circuit and can't be remedied, but if it is excessive then i'd recommend getting it looked at and maybe getting it re-capped? It should not be a loud noise, just a quiet idle hum... and when using the effects loop it can get pretty noisey, which is why i never use any effects in the loop of my current amp. I just using pedals up front... like my Maxon OD for a boost. Which is all it really needs. Great amps anyways.
Everytime I ever tried to use the effects send on my RG100ES, the target amp or power amp has always buzzed like a demon! I do not understand how anyone can use it at all. Contradicts every you've heard about Dime's setup, right? Maybe I am missing something obvious?
My RG100ES has recently started sounding loose in the bass end and sort of blah. I put new filter caps in it and the humming at idle did drop by a noticeable amount. But it just doesn't sound as good as it once did. Someone suggested the output transistors?
Any ideas what could cause the low end to start sounding flabby?
Thanks, gang.