Joe,

Sorry for the delay.  The combination of a cold last week and a ton of emails has put me back a few days.

We don't publish the schematics of our current products; but I'd be quite prepared to share it with you privately, if you agree not to share it publicly.

Send me an email and I'll send it across.

James.

Ah! Absolutely. I agree.

I think that there would be a good market for a take on the concept of the Crate Powerblock, but done properly.  All anlogue signal path, switch mode power supply, light and great sounding.

If Juan can design the electronics, we'll do the rest....And publish the schematics.

:tu:

James.

Hi Juan,

OK, that makes sense for shipping and Brazil being your only interesting market.  Quite a lot of smaller, specialist guitar speaker builders have had some good success, people like Ted Weber in the USA and even Fane in the UK.

I think with the right product and exposure there would be a good market in the USA and Europe.

I have come across Meteoro before, but never paid them much attention.  I didn't realise that they copied everything on the product and also so many different products.  I guess there's not much to protect copying sometimes.

:tu:

James.

Hi Juan,

It's a very interesting story.  I'm aware that many South American countries have high import taxes, although I don't know the details.  I guess it makes international trade very difficult.  We don't sell into any South American countries yet because our volumes are not yet big enough to make it commercially viable.

OK; since you're shipping by land/truck, then the rules and charges are all very different.  For sea shipping, much of the cost is in customs and port charges.  For land transport, much of the cost will be in the transport itself, since a truck is nowhere near as efficient as a large container ship.  2,000km by road will cost a lot in fuel, driver costs, depreciation of the truck and possibly road tolls if they apply.  Also in your case, customs and tax charges may well be high.

Do you sell your speakers internationally?

James.

Juan,

What do you get exactly for your USD300?  Is it from your door to the customer's door, DDU?  As you can probably work out from the freight/fuel costs, the sea distance is insignificant to the costs.  What kind of volumes do you send per shipment?

Speakers?....tell me more!

James.

Juan, did the shipping figures make sense?

Joe, I'll PM you...

Phil,

I'll check out your PhAbbTone circuit.

I agree with your sentiments of working the way we best know how - experience with one kind of technology / topology certainly drew me our way.  The circuit is by no means particularly original; it's not at all.  The key was careful design, listening and tweaking to make it sound as good as possible.  The innovation was the basic concept - a great sounding guitar amp head in a pedal sized enclosure.

The EHX Caliber 22 and Magnum 44 appeared after we had started development of the LS, and they're not terribly good guitar amps.  They do overdrive, but not particularly in a guitar amp kind of way.  The TI Class-D IC's that they use are a nice concept, but I wanted the LS to specifically work from a standard 9V DC adaptor.  We could take the higher power approach and supply a proprietary higher voltage adaptor?

To your EQ and speaker comments....yes, absolutely!  The LS has a ton of EQ in the first few op-amp stages. Shape -> Gain -> Shape -> Gain etc.  The final stage is the 2 band Baxendall before it goes into the output TDA7240A, which is overdriven somewhat too at many signal levels/settings.

Yes; I agree 100% on your component thoughts, it's much more important than the assembly.  The key is to specify the best components, and have samples sent to the UK for testing before approval.  In the case of jacks - I had about 20-30 different types from different factories sent over to test them.  A lot of the cheaper ones have fillers in the plastic which lowers the cost, but makes them brittle.  Specification and testing  needs a close eye.  Our project manager in China is an experienced component buyer so that helps too.

Joe; very interesting point on the marketing.  Maybe we didn't approach it right, what you say makes perfect sense.  I was hoping that people would work out their own use for it, but I realise that's not terribly sharp marketing.  It's funny because by far the most emails we've had about it is about using it with a DI box / mixing desk.  Obviously, it's not appropriate to do that, but it shows that there are a ton of people who want to DI, but that don't want to use a POD or similar DSP unit, and still want to use their pedal boards - they want something to replace the amp, cab and microphone, not just the amp.  Does that sound interesting to you?

Indeed, it can be used as a recording amp, but I thought a lot of recording purists are not driven by portability - in a studio you can have the biggest most unreliable thing (that seems to be something that's seen as a good thing to some!), so long as it has tubes, mojo and some kind of history and character.  I felt that a solid state amp in a tiny box could never compete with that from a marketing point of view, however good it sounds.

Don't worry about the early judgements, or any later ones.  We all have our own ideas and opinions and I like to discuss with people like you guys who have brains and can discuss their opinions, not just simply state them.

I appreciate your views on manufacturing too; it's an emotive subject.  I studied manufacturing engineering, it's something I've long been passionate about.  I'm a big advocate of smart manufacturing; Leo Fender reduced the cost of an electric guitar by a factor of about 10, by simplifying the design for easy manufacturing.  Nitro cellulose was used because it did the job, was easy to get hold of and cheap, due to the local automotive manufacturing usage.  That's my kind of engineering - bringing step change to a field, and making activities that were previously the preserve of the rich, to everyone.

I too used to work in a small manufacturing business (industrial bakery machinery), but I felt that they placed too much emphasis on the manufacturing and not enough on the design.  They ended up way behind the competition, because they were bound by the machinery that they had invested in.  I guess there's no right an wrong answer, but I know which works best for us.

Anyway, enough of that.  I have an idea.  Who would be interested in helping us develop a / some products?  Not just the detail design work, but the concept and development too.  I'm sure we could work out a method of reward.  I know a lot of you guys *really* know your stuff, much more so than I do.  I'm looking for folks to help us with new product development, and maybe here's one of the best places to look?!

How about it?

:tu:

James.

Phil, interesting post.  I'll come back to you later.  Work to do now...

James.

Joe, Juan, everyone,

Again, you're welcome.  I don't feel like an outsider here, so I'm happy to share my experiences.

Joe, regarding location of manufacture, I used to think the same - supporting local jobs in manufacturing is a great thing right?  The thing is that we *do* provide local jobs and pay local taxes (albeit in the UK and not the USA).  It's just that our jobs are in engineering and marketing, not in manufacturing.  I'd pose the notion that we're providing a similar number, but better jobs than we could if we were manufacturing in the UK (we'd probably have to set-up our own manufacturing, and would not be able to fund as much product development), and we're definitely paying more employment and corporation tax doing it this way too.  Having no manufacturing jobs allows us to have more engineering jobs.

Dyson (the vacuum company) here in the UK used to have an injection moulding and assembly line here in the UK.  They laid off about 800 people, and moved the production to Malaysia and the media annihilated them for it.  What the media never reported was that over the next 2 years they were able to hire 1,200 more people, mostly in engineering.  So the move actually improved competitiveness, increased the number of (better) jobs, and allowed the company to develop more products more rapidly.  How can that be a bad thing?  Sure, the lower paid assembly workers lost their jobs, but difficult decisions have to be made sometimes, and I support the concept in the name of progress.

Does that seem reasonable?  It seems common to presume that the manufacturing stage of any product is one that should be preserved, but not many folks speak of the other jobs.  Consider that the *manufacturing* of pedal boards, power supplies and guitar amps is not exactly super high tech, then the manufacturing jobs are also quite basic.  Why should it be so important that we create these specific kinds of jobs in the UK?  If that's the case, should we be also setting up our own local IC fabbing plant?  These ideas make no sense to me at all.

If we were making highly specialised aerospace or military goods, then I would agree that such manufacturing activities are ones that *do* add value, and they should be developed and supported locally.

Do you follow my thoughts on that?

I agree that quality is absolutely the reason to buy, and that in the past, the quality has tended to be better from the West.  However, it's a totally bogus notion these days.  Consider that iPhone or any Apple product?  Could it be manufactured in the West any better?  Absolutely not.  My experience with China is that if you want crap, you can have it, and if you want great quality you can have that too.  You just have to specify it and be prepared to pay for it.

I agree with your points on marketing; it's not meant to compete with cheap solid state combos.  It's a great sounding backup / practice tool that's portable.  If you have a cab at your destination, then you just need to take a guitar and pedal board with you.  Maybe that's not clear from our marketing... Yes, a second product would be in addition to the LS01.

Joe, from reading your posts over the past few years, you're definitely an engineer.  Even if you're not doing it professionally, or don't have professional qualifications, you're still an engineer...it's in your blood!

Juan, regarding the shipping, I'll expand.  Firstly, I was talking about the "freight" element of the overall shipping cost only, which is literally the charge for getting the ship from Guangzhou, China to Felixstowe, UK; this does not include loading fees, taxes, unloading fees, dock fees or anything else.  The way to calculate it is to take the cost of a CIF shipment and subtract the cost of an identical FOB shipment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incoterms.

Typically that cost would be in the region of $300USD for a 20' container which will hold 38 cubic metres (CBM).  For sea shipping the driving factor is usually volume, not weight.  Air shipments are usually the other way round, but it depends on the goods.  A 20' container would fit about 17,000 pieces of LS, including packaging.  So shipping FCL gives a freight cost of 1.8 US cents each....  We don't often send full containers (FCL) (yet!), so our costs are much higher by consolidation or less than container loads (LCL).

The freight element of shipping is one of the smallest components.  As Juan says, once you add all the other elements to get the goods from the factory, to the port, pay customs charges, port charges, the reverse at the other end, and additional import and value added taxes, the cost can be in the region of an order of magnitude higher.

Does that clarify?

:tu:

James @ Diago.

Joe, Juan, everyone else,

1) Yes, it comes with a 1,000mA PSU.  The 600mA is a conservative nominal rating (under most usage conditions), although we should probably be a lot more clear about that.

2) The pre-amp is all op-amp based (TL2262/4s). No FETs at all.  AMT Electronics use FETs and their products sound amazing.  I'd like to know more about how they di do it...

3) Joe, I'm presuming you're in the US?  I understand your sentiment.  Pricing is an important subject, and there are a lot of decisions to make along the way.  If we use your comparison, the the LS seems like poor value.  However, if you compare the LS with a Fulltone OCD (just for example), the result is different.  The Fulltone OCD could be made for about $10, but it retails at the equivalent of $300 USD in the UK.  Comparing the BOM cost and complexity of the OCD vs the LS, and the LS offers much better value for money.  As a tiny business, we're not able to compete sharply on price, and we're not aiming to do that alone.  Of course all products are price sensitive to a greater or lesser degree, but our aim is to offer new concepts, and better things.  That's where we're able to compete with the bigger boys.

As a new concept and product design that cost us a lot in R&D time and a reasonable amount of money, we thought it was a reasonable price.

Also, our focus is on quality; for example the casing is 2mm / 14 gauge steel.  We could have made it from a much more lightweight material that would have done the same job, but I  like to take things that bit further to give the best overall experience and reliability.

One other problem in this industry is that US brands often self distribute in the USA.  US brand products are often way cheaper, since they add no distribution margin in the US, hence the Dean Markley problem.  Outside the US the prices are typically 50-100% more than they are in the US.  In the UK the Fulltone OCD (again, just an  example) is the equivalent of $300 retail, with a street price of $200.  It's $135 in the US.  Our products have a relatively flat pricing structure throughout the world, since we use the same business model everywhere.

4) We manufacture in China.  The dreaded C word!  There's a blog post on our website about it, but I'll cover some of the main reasons here.  Originally I had our pedal boards contract manufactured in the UK.  I had a lot of trouble with the supplier (late delivery, not able to deliver the quantity we required, quality issues, changing of specification with no warning or agreement, etc., and i tried to find another better factory, but to no result.  I simply couldn't find any one interested in that kind of work.  The biggest issue was getting anything more than a wooden box made - most factories just wanted to do one element or type of work, but I wanted someone to manufacture and supply a complete, finished product according to our design & specifications.  Eventually I contacted a rapid prototyping company in China that I'd had some dealings with making CNC parts for industrial pumps, and who had been amazing to deal with.  I had found them a few years earlier via mfg.com as part of my previous job at the pump company and asked them if they knew anyone who could help.  They told me to go and see them and that they would help me.  I flew to China, they took me round 5 factories that they had arranged meetings with, and we selected one.  Before I went, my friends asked each factory to make a sample.  The factory that we selected made a great sample, understood the product requirements, and went out of their way to listen and help.  I've never had service like it anywhere.  They still make our pedal boards now, 4 years later, and I'd say that I'm very good friends with the factory owner.  She's a great lady.

Anyway; the summary is that China was never specifically on the cards.  It was just the result of me asking a good supplier that I knew, if they could help, and they did.  Now, I can get a finished product (packaged, including everything) made to a design and specification, without too much fuss.  Sometimes there are things to clarify and sort out, but on the whole, it's straight forward to manage.

Prices are generally in the region of 20% cheaper than a UK BOM + assembly cost, but when you factor in shipping there's not actually that much difference to justify the remoteness and lack of control.  The simple fact is that, in my experience, it's much easier to get things done the way we are doing it.  In general, manufacturing is done on time to our QC specs.  Development is mostly straightforward too, done by email and Skype.  It's surprising what can be done that way, and it's all documented.

So, going back to your original point Joe, I'm surprised that you'd be prepared to pay more if it was made in the West, than in China.  Can I ask why, in your opinion is it reasonable to pay more for something based on location of manufacture?  As we're both engineers, I can't understand why you would be willing to pay more for a Western made product.  Maybe it's better phrased as, what does a Western made product offer you that a Chinese made product does not, when the design, specification and quality is the same, that justifies a higher price?

Korea has similar overheads to the West, so Korean made product is only ever going to be cheaper if it's made more efficiently.

5) The Epi Valve Jr sounded like a bag of spanners. It sold simply on the merit of it being a "real" valve/tube amp at a knockdown price, what we'd call lip service in the UK.  I appreciate what you're saying, and I find it interesting that people have this hierarchy of price / location of manufacture / tubes vs solid state / etc. going on in their heads that has this rigid structure that they can't get away from.  I have come across quite a few people who simply cannot bring themselves to buy a better sounding SS or DSP amp over a crappy sounding tube amp at the same price.  They do not believe their own ears, or do not want to.  The good news is that the web and a new breed of younger players is helping to change this, at least in certain sectors of the market.  They're learning to buy with their ears, not their eyes or by specification.

6) Good suggestions.  A headphone jack and line out is something we've be asked for a thousand times...and another thousand have asked "can it be plugged into a desk / DI box?!"  The LS  was a first product of it's type (I mean for us, our first electronic audio product), so we kept it relatively simple and manageable (financially and project wise).  We have plans to take the concept further, using some of the functionality of larger regular amps.

7) Sweatshops....  I've been to our factories a few times, and they're definitely not sweatshops.  Folks in China have different expectations of work than we do here - sick pay, holiday pay, health insurance, are not expected.  Chinese people expect to sort that out themselves from their own pay, and it comes from their views and culture of self sufficiency.  That is, however, changing very quickly as the economy develops and the workforce evolves.  The Chinese do tend to work harder and longer hours than us in the West.  This, again, is a cultural difference as much as anything else; their days and weekends are not set-out like ours.

I like the idea of marketing the fact that our factories are not sweatshops, if that's of great concern to buyers.  However, I'm not sure how we could/would go about it - photos of the factories on the website perhaps?

Yes, our products are now available in about 30 countries.  Have a look at the "Where to Buy" section of our website.  We design the products here, everything from concept, electronics, PCBs, mechanical design, artwork, packaging (including the box nets), and website.  Designs and samples are sent to our project manager in China and she goes about sourcing all the parts, assembly and packaging, and supplies to us as a finished product.  We sell to distributors direct from the factories in China; that way we're not unnecessarily sending stuff around the world for no reason.  Orders to Australia for example go direct from the factory to the Australian distributor.  The distributor then sells the goods to the stores, and the stores sell the goods to the end users.  I'm sure you can imagine how much we need to be able to have products manufactured for vs the end user price and how little of that actually ends up our pocket.  I'm not playing my miniature violin, and accept that this is how it's done (at least for now), just pointing the issue out.  Even if we made a 50% margin (which we don't get anywhere near), both a distributor and a retailer would still make double what we make on any given product; each.

From a environmental point of view, since we're selling all over the world, it makes no more sense to make the stuff in the UK than it does in China.  Wherever we make the products, some customers will be close by, and some will be at the other side of the world.  I calculated that the shipping cost (just the freight element, no taxes etc) for sending a Little Smasher from China to the UK is about 0.04GBP, so about 0.06USD.  By definition, the fuel cost must be less than that, and it's the use of fuel that causes the environmental issues.  If you compare that with me driving to a local music store (10 mile round trip, vs 6,000 miles), to buy something, you'll agree that shipping stuff around the world by sea is insignificant and that there are far better and significant ways to reduce the impact of transport on the environment.  Shipping by air is another matter...

I hope that's interesting.

Keep firing questions at me if you have them.

:tu:

James @ Diago.

Gents,

James from Diago here.  I've been a member of the forum since early 2009, and a lurker for a lot longer than that.  Teemu's book is amazing.  I've learned a lot.

In response to your questions:

1) For the power amp, we're using a TDA7240A in bridged mode.  Into an 8 ohm load, we can get about 5W out of it; nearly 7W into 4 ohms (not clean).

2) For the best recording, see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cablnl3Ag7Q  Do you really think that it's no better sounding than an LM386 based circuit?  That doesn't seem to be the opinion of most people who have heard it or played it.  I've built a bunch of solid state pre-amps and amps over the years and making a great one takes a great deal of hard work.  I'm really surprised you're comparing the LS with the LM386 based amps.

3) Pricing is a function of manufacturing cost, reasonable profit and the long distribution chain in this industry.  In the UK they retail at £99, including a power supply, which is much less than a lot of much simpler and less costly distortion pedals, without a power supply.  Do you think that it's wholly unreasonable compared with anything else?  If so, what do you think would be a reasonable price?

4) It's entirely analogue using a bunch of carefully designed op-amp gain/filter stages - think Sansamp approach with some more work.  Yes, it's almost all SMD.

5) Absolutely, it sounds the best through some decent speakers, and a decent cab.  Don't all amps?  That's one of the premises - most smaller amps are coupled with cheap crappy speakers, and people wonder why they don't sound so great...

6) The EQ controls are +15/-30dB.  On higher gain settings, they don't do as much, since a lot of the distortion is post EQ.

7) The gain pot is as I designed it.  It's voiced to give a plexi vibe, and with single coils it cleans up reasonably well.  Yes, with higher output pickups it's very easy to overdrive, just as intended.  I appreciate your criticisms, but it isn't designed to be the world's most versatile amp.  That's not what most people want.

If you absolutely must clone it, then I respect your freedom to do that.  However, Diago is a tiny company (just 3 of us), and I'd like to think that you may consider our business and livelihoods in the process.  I don't know what effect having that info in the public domain will do, but I ask that you consider the possible effects on us.  I appreciate that doing it has negligible effect on the larger organisations.

I'm happy to answer as many questions as you like.  Fire away../

If some of the more experienced of you have any advice, I'm happy to listen/read.

:tu:

James @ Diago.