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Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?

Started by Zappacat, August 03, 2009, 12:54:25 AM

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J M Fahey

Dear Zappacat.
Please understand that we all appreciate you, and don´t want to be rough or unkind, but I don´t find other way to say it:
this Forum, or rather the full site , as I see it, was set up as a place to exchange information and ask/give help, but it´s not Electronics 101. A certain basic understanding is needed for anything above the most common tasks, such as "clean the pots", "check the fuse", etc.
If you have a Technician friend who's willing to help you, please ask him to do so.
Besides, you have a most difficult amp, where I think that most of us , and indeed anybody not belonging to the inner circle of Line 6 can´t possibly repair it, being such a groundbreaking technology, where they  are very advanced.
Good luck and best wishes.

Zappacat

Quote from: J M Fahey on August 19, 2009, 10:28:16 PM
Dear Zappacat.
Please understand that we all appreciate you, and don´t want to be rough or unkind, but I don´t find other way to say it:
this Forum, or rather the full site , as I see it, was set up as a place to exchange information and ask/give help
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Quote
but it´s not Electronics 101. A certain basic understanding is needed for anything above the most common tasks, such as "clean the pots", "check the fuse", etc.
I don't remember asking you about either one of those situations.  Just a transformer that I don't understand and how to measure the voltage readings.
Quote
If you have a Technician friend who's willing to help you, please ask him to do so.
Besides, you have a most difficult amp, where I think that most of us , and indeed anybody not belonging to the inner circle of Line 6 can´t possibly repair it, being such a groundbreaking technology, where they  are very advanced.
Good luck and best wishes.
I'm about to fix this.  There were certain things I had to make sure were right/wrong before I got further into it namely the power supply info that you helped me with.  Quite interesting actually.  Since you put this "groundbreaking technology" on a higher ground(no pun intended) maybe you should enjoy someone making a real effort to dissect it and fix it.

enjoy!
I put my pants on just like the rest of you - one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records.

f_b_ilies

Quote from: J M Fahey on August 03, 2009, 12:24:42 PM
Hi Zappacat, you should start learning the language of the future: Chinese.
I´m starting to do so.

Meanwhile: the 1X-5730-04H0 is :
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:15.2VAC x 2/7.
...
The 1X-6636-02H0 is:
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:16.3VAC x 2/7.

They both are made by Jetronics and cost Yen 17 and 27 respectively.
The 0814 code means Year2008, Week 14 (mid March).


Hi!

Reactivating this old topic. Do you happen to have the specs for the Line6 Spider III 75W as well? I would need both for the 110V and the 220V.

The story: I bought the amp in North America, then moved to Europe and plugged it in, being mislead by a sticker that was suggesting it's a dual transformer. Then boom! I took the amp to a Line6 dealer and a replacement transformer (220V) costs 160 EUR. Of course they wouldn't give me the transformer specs.

Then I tried to find this info on the Jetronics page, without success. I sent them an e-mail and got this strange answer:

From: Jetronics Ltd
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: transformer for Line6 guitar amp

Thank you for your inquiry! We would like to inform you we have the power transformer for Line 6 Spider III HD75. Could you please provide the authorization of Line 6 to use this transformer in your products for our reference?

Best regards,
Jetronics Ltd
Sales Dept
Web Site: www.jetronicsltd.com



Now my uncle claims he is able to calculate the output based on the size of the core and the number of the loops in the coil and then rewire the transformer. Not that I don't trust my uncle, but I would like to get some kind of confirmation on the actual specs before I let him dismember the transformer :)

Thanks!

bry melvin

They probably  will only sell it to an authorized repair center and they want that ID #.

FWIW I've run into that with Marshall parts.

Amp companies sometimes want this as a method to help prevent cloning and wrongful death suits. (particularly from tube amps)




From line 6 FAQ:

Q: Where can I purchase parts for my Line 6 device?



A: Line 6 provides a number of replacement parts through our Online Store. If you are unable to find the part you need on the store, you may contact one of our Service Centers or Dealers to special order some parts. Please keep in mind that parts sales are at the service center or dealers discretion. Line 6 DOES NOT do direct parts sales.




Enzo

I have to point out that the service center may have no idea what the specs are, even if they wanted to tell you.  My shop is an authorized warranty repair facility for most of the major amp brands - though not Line6 - and frankly I have no idea the specs on most any transformer I see.  If I determine a Peavey 5150 needs a transformer, I call Peavey and order one.  If I need a transformer for a MArshall TSL100, I call MArshall and order one.  And so on.  Knowing how may amperes of how many volts doesn't enter into the repair picture.

f_b_ilies

I wish we were back in the old days when repairing meant more than just replacing a board or a transformer. I will not pay 160 EUR for a transformer when the whole amp cost me $350 two years ago. The whole thing doesn't worth more than a hundred bucks. So I'll just have to rely on my uncle's expertize.  Make it or break it. :)

J M Fahey

Hi FBILIES.
If you want to, I can help your Uncle by double-checking his rewinding work.
Tell him to pull laminations, (post the E and I dimensions here and how high the stack is) , take a few pictures, make a drawing of wiring, colours, whatever, and start unwinding carefully.
He'll also need a micrometer (please use metric units) to measure wire diiameters.
He'll probably have two thick (around 0.80 mm) secondaries and a thinner , around 0.60 mm 120V primary with somewhat over twice the full secondary turns.
He'll have to make a new 220/240V primary, I'll help him calculate it.
He'll need to improvise some hand-cranked rewinding machine.
You should, in fact first try to get a professional rewinder who will have everything set up already, but if not, it can be handmade.
Anyway remember that your power amplifier and/or power supply is also damaged, not only the power transformer.
You'll also have to deal with that.
Good luck.
PS: obviously those 160 Euro are a steal !! But they don't *have* to sell you anything, so they set the price they like.
Those original chinese transformers cost less than 10 Euro at the factory, but they can only sell to the Original Equipment Manufacturer.

rowdy_riemer

Why not just use any power transformer that supplies the same voltage with the same or higher volt-amp rating?

f_b_ilies

#23
According to the repair shop the amp is fine, only the transformer burned. Not sure how they figured that out, maybe they are just trying to have me buy the transformer only to realize that the whole thing is broken. It would be great if you could help us, cause we got puzzled by a few facts when opening up the amp:

1. The AC input wires (black&white) don't go straight into the transformer, but onto the motherboard first, where something happens to the current most probably, cause then we have 3 wires (red, yellow, black) going out of the motherboard and into the transformer. First question: what does the motherboard do to the current and why 3 wires instead of 2?

2. The AC connector going out of the motherboard and into the transformer has 2 positions, depending on the AC input (110V or 220V). Which raises another question: what if the 2 transformer types have different specs and the 110V one cannot be used to clone a 220V transformer?

3. The transformer has 5 output wires (2 blue, 2 brown, 1 black), so there are several outputs there. Is it possible to figure them out at all?

My uncle says there are several standards for measuring E&I, I wasn't sure which one, so I'm sending a pic with all the measurements there are.

Thanks

mensur

#24
Quote from: f_b_ilies on June 07, 2010, 07:25:27 AM
According to the repair shop the amp is fine, only the transformer burned. Not sure how they figured that out, maybe they are just trying to have me buy the transformer only to realize that the whole thing is broken. It would be great if you could help us, cause we got puzzled by a few facts when opening up the amp:

1. The AC input wires (black&white) don't go straight into the transformer, but onto the motherboard first, where something happens to the current most probably, cause then we have 3 wires (red, yellow, black) going out of the motherboard and into the transformer. First question: what does the motherboard do to the current and why 3 wires instead of 2?

2. The AC connector going out of the motherboard and into the transformer has 2 positions, depending on the AC input (110V or 220V). Which raises another question: what if the 2 transformer types have different specs and the 110V one cannot be used to clone a 220V transformer?

3. The transformer has 5 output wires (2 blue, 2 brown, 1 black), so there are several outputs there. Is it possible to figure them out at all?

My uncle says there are several standards for measuring E&I, I wasn't sure which one, so I'm sending a pic with all the measurements there are.

Thanks
1.Motherboard has a switch probably for two kinds of fuses(one for 110V, other for 220V which is smaller).
3. 3 wires are  positive voltage, negative, and ground, other two are AC mains. That way most if not all modern poweramps are designed.
Your transformer is standard EI76 x 46 which is about 70W of continous power.

f_b_ilies

Quote from: mensur on June 07, 2010, 07:43:40 AM
1.Motherboard has a switch probably for two kinds of fuses(one for 110V, other for 220V which is smaller).
3. 3 wires are  positive voltage, negative, and ground, other two are AC mains. That way most if not all modern poweramps are designed.
Your transformer is standard EI76 x 46 which is about 70W of continous power.

Thanks. The power requirements are 300W actually, I attached another pic above. And there are 2 types of fuses indeed.

mensur

300W  :lmao:, they can write 10KW too, but it doesn't mean that is correct. Rough power can be calculated with this method;
your transformer is EI76x41, so 76/3(we get core dimension)=25.3mm x 41mm = 107W, then 107W x sqrt2 = 75.66W, but this is only a rough calculation, actually real power is much less in real life.

f_b_ilies

Thanks, so what's next? Is this data enough to calculate the output voltage, which is the ultimate goal eventually? Or do I need to count loops also?

J M Fahey

Excuse me for being the devil's advocate, but maybe your transformer isn't burnt at all.
Your pictures and measurements were excellent, *very* useful.
Let me add that Mensur's calculations are excelent, they are the classic very safe formulas, but let me add that on today's cut-throat competitive economics, using good iron and pushing everything to the limit, everything can be stretched. For example, I can (as well as *many* others), pull up to 150VA out of that transformer  :o, although it would work hot to the touch,  and which in turn would be barely adequate for a 2x75W power amp.
I guess they can get away with it, because by definition a modeler amp can *not* be used on full power nor even close to that, or the power amp saturation would swamp any sound generated in the preamp modeler.
A duty cycle lower than 100% would also help.
Anyway it's bad Engineering calculating everything for the most favorable case, instead of the usual worst case.
I'll ask you one more favor:
Please draw the transformer as a rectangle, seen from above, and draw clearly all wires that leave it, with proper colors and up to the corresponding connectors , if applicable.
Also post a couple pictures of said connectors plugged in the motherboard. The cherry on the cake would be some extra track.side board pictures, in those connectors and fuses area, as to lower the "guessing-stress"
Good luck.

mensur

Disconnect mains, and secondary wires from the motherboard, and measure DC resistance between black, yellow and red, and second between mains (white and black), and tell us resistances.