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Transformer identification resources(Line6 spider III)anyone got info on these?

Started by Zappacat, August 03, 2009, 12:54:25 AM

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Zappacat

How do I find information on the following power transformers taken from different line6 spider III amps?  ON-TECH appears to be the manufacturer but the only match for the product numbers on google yield pages that are in chinese and they error out when trying to get google to translate.  Does anyone have a resource for ON-TECH that is written in English?

Line6 spider III 15 has these numbers stamped in the metal
1X-5730-04H0 and these numbers printed 0826

Line6 spider III 30 has these numbers stamped in the metal
1X-6636-02H0 and these numbers printed 0814

I suspect the power transformer is bad in the 30 watt amp.  It has a 5 pin connector going to the main board.  Measured AC voltage levels are as follows:

red1 = 4.6
red2 = 2.4
blue1 = 7.3
black = 1.6
blue2 = 4.4

Any help greatly appreciated.


I put my pants on just like the rest of you - one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records.

phatt

I assume you have the Transformer wires *OFF* the main board when you took those measurements?

Maybe Try doing a Resistive reading on both the Primary and the Secondaries.
(all power off of course and unplugged from wall sockets)
My guess is if the tranny is stuffed then the Primary will be open circuit and it would read a very high ohms or wavering around ( ie, not able to get a stable reading).

Also read the primary from the active pins on the wall plug,, you never know the cord? the fuse holder? the main power switch?  all possible candidates for OC in the primary.
Some modern Tr's come with a thermal link inside the winding another point of OC failure.

Others here will be more qualified to comment as it's only a hobby for me.
Hope it helps. Phil.

Zappacat

Quote from: phatt on August 03, 2009, 09:01:54 AM
I assume you have the Transformer wires *OFF* the main board when you took those measurements?

Maybe Try doing a Resistive reading on both the Primary and the Secondaries.
(all power off of course and unplugged from wall sockets)
My guess is if the tranny is stuffed then the Primary will be open circuit and it would read a very high ohms or wavering around ( ie, not able to get a stable reading).

Also read the primary from the active pins on the wall plug,, you never know the cord? the fuse holder? the main power switch?  all possible candidates for OC in the primary.
Some modern Tr's come with a thermal link inside the winding another point of OC failure.

Others here will be more qualified to comment as it's only a hobby for me.
Hope it helps. Phil.
Yes, I had the transformer unplugged frrom the circuit board when taking the readings.

What exactly is meant by "OC failure"?

So "doing a Resistive reading on both the Primary and the Secondaries"  entails measuring the resistance from each of the 5 wires I mentioned to what connection?

Thanks Phil!
I put my pants on just like the rest of you - one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records.

phatt

Sorry Zappacat,,, OC= open circuit.

The 5 wires you tested are Likely the *secondary windings only*.
There will be at least another TWO Wires,, often these exit from another side of the winding stack but not always.
Edit; adding just follow the *Mains cord* through to the transformer.

With my limited understaning I think the very low voltage reading on the secondary *Maybe* indicitive of a primary failure, So I'd check that out first via a resistive reading of the primary winding.

If you cant establish the primary wires inside the chassis then as I mentioned take the reading from the *Mains Lead* itself.
Put your meter on ohms,, connect to both AC plug pins (not the earth pin) Now switch the power switch to the *On* position.
You should get a stable low ohms reading.
Maybe around 50/100 ohms,, depends greatly on the VA rating.  Generally really big transformers have greater current ability and they tend to have a lower reading due to the heavier gauge windings.

If the reading is high ,, like 10k ohms or the reading fluctuates a lot then the primary is proly stuffed.
And while you have the power socket in your hand check the continuity of the *Earth Pin* while you're there. you should see 1 ohm or there abouts from Earth Pin to Amplifier Chassis.
Phil.

phatt

Just adding,
Logic suggests that the the black wire would be the CT (center tap)  and highest voltage on the secondary would be between the two *Red Wires* but it could be the two Blues.

You can work out which ones by following the circuit traces from the input pins across to the Bridge rectifier and big filter caps.

You can also get some idea of what DC voltage the amp works on just by reading the working voltage written on the Main Electrolitic Caps. The caps will always be rated at a slightly higher voltage than the amp uses. ie, with a pair 50 volt caps the working voltage will be somewhere between 37VDC to 45VDC. So divide by 1.4 to get a rough idea of the AC that you would expect to read at the AC secondary terminals.
Lets say the secondary is a 56VAC CT (same as 28/0/28) ..
Then you would be seeing a voltage of 56VAC between the two red wires,,, or 28VAC between one of the Red and the Common Black wire.
Phil.

J M Fahey

Hi Zappacat, you should start learning the language of the future: Chinese.
I´m starting to do so.
Meanwhile: the 1X-5730-04H0 is :
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:15.2VAC x 2/7.
The black wire is most certainly the center tap; measure its continuity to the blue and red wires; the ones connected to black are2x15VAC and the ones isolated from it are 7VAC if I understand it right.
I understand that there are *other* 3 wires , of which 2 are connected to the power switch and fuse,  one being the neutral and the other the hot 120V tap, with an extra unused 100V tap.
Just in case, post a clear picture or two.
The 1X-6636-02H0 is:
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:16.3VAC x 2/7.
They both are made by Jetronics and cost Yen 17 and 27 respectively.
The 0814 code means Year2008, Week 14 (mid March).
Considering all industry in the world is being moved to China, we should start learning how to plant soy or rice and rise cattle.
Good luck.

Zappacat

Quote from: J M Fahey on August 03, 2009, 12:24:42 PM
Hi Zappacat, you should start learning the language of the future: Chinese.
I´m starting to do so.
Meanwhile: the 1X-5730-04H0 is :
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:15.2VAC x 2/7.
The black wire is most certainly the center tap; measure its continuity to the blue and red wires; the ones connected to black are2x15VAC and the ones isolated from it are 7VAC if I understand it right.
I understand that there are *other* 3 wires , of which 2 are connected to the power switch and fuse,  one being the neutral and the other the hot 120V tap, with an extra unused 100V tap.
Just in case, post a clear picture or two.
The 1X-6636-02H0 is:
名称:X'FORMER I/P:100/120VAC 50/60Hz O/P:16.3VAC x 2/7.
They both are made by Jetronics and cost Yen 17 and 27 respectively.
The 0814 code means Year2008, Week 14 (mid March).
Considering all industry in the world is being moved to China, we should start learning how to plant soy or rice and rise cattle.
Good luck.
Thanks a lot for that information.  The blue wires are connected to the black.  The red ones are not.  Where did you get that information?  It's what I was looking for and was unable to find.  Am I correct in assuming that I should be reading 15VAC on each blue wire and 7VAC on the red ones assuming the power supply is working properly?  What should the black wire measure in voltage?  Where can i order one of these power supplies?  Thanks very much for your help JM I really appreciate it.

I just measured the AC pin voltages and got:

blue    3.9
black   1.6
blue    6.8
red     2.2
red     4.5

Is it possible to conclude from this that the transformer is shot or do I actually need to have the transformer hooked up to the board with the unit powered on to read the transformer voltage outputs accurately?
I put my pants on just like the rest of you - one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records.

J M Fahey

Hi Zappacat.
The page of the Chinese supplier is: http://www.kwanwing.com:81/Product/?page=64&sortid=
According to the schematic and what you have, the connector pinout should be:1/2/3/4/5-->blue/black/blue/red/red and you should read
a)AC volts relative to ground: 1/2/3-->15/0/15
b)AC volts relative to each other, not to ground: from 4 to 5 : 7 V
On the primary side you have 3 wires, only 2 are connected to 120V AC , the 3rd unconnected one is the 100V tap.
Unless it smokes/sparks or is open, I don't think you have a transformer problem.
What are the symptoms?.

Zappacat

Quote from: J M Fahey on August 17, 2009, 09:47:47 PM
Hi Zappacat.
The page of the Chinese supplier is: http://www.kwanwing.com:81/Product/?page=64&sortid=
According to the schematic and what you have, the connector pinout should be:1/2/3/4/5-->blue/black/blue/red/red and you should read
a)AC volts relative to ground: 1/2/3-->15/0/15
b)AC volts relative to each other, not to ground: from 4 to 5 : 7 V
On the primary side you have 3 wires, only 2 are connected to 120V AC , the 3rd unconnected one is the 100V tap.
Unless it smokes/sparks or is open, I don't think you have a transformer problem.
What are the symptoms?.
I added my voltage readings in the previous post.  Does the amp need to be on with the power supply connected to the circuit board in order for me to get accurate transformer voltage readings?

I just measured the AC pin voltages and got:

blue    3.9
black   1.6
blue    6.8
red     2.2
red     4.5

Do you think the transformer is shot?  When I power the amp on and off I can hear the faint audio cut noise that an amp makes when turning on and off.  It's very soft but it's there.  None of the control lights come on and and controls seem to be unresponsive.  If I have it turned on and crank the volume you still get not output.  No hiss or anything.  Thanks!
I put my pants on just like the rest of you - one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records.

phatt

Hi Zappacat, still struggling with it,, oh dear Hopefully I won't add to the confusion.
JMFahey has explained it well but there maybe some confusion about ground.
The common or ground if you like is the CT (Center Tap) of the 15/0/15 winding.

So *0* in a 15/0/15 secondary is *Common* to the Two 15 windings.
So using the same explaination as Fahey, taps 1/2/3 equal 15/0/15
In most amp circuits the *Common* CT becomes the *Ground* of a split supply.
Another way to express the same winding would be to say; 30 volt CT.
Or a single 30volt winding with a Cent Tap.

You should set your DMM to read AC Volts and be able to get a reading of ~30 VAC between tap 1 and 3.
Which should also give you ~15VAC between (1 and 2) or (3 and 2).

If you are doing everything right and you can only get low readings as you have shown then it's probably blown.

The faint click or whatever is likely due to the couple of volts generated via magnetic coupling, even though the wire has gone open circuit it still induces a small voltage due to magnetic coupling of what is left of the windings but nowhere near enough to power up.
ie, a small voltage with no current capability hence the power indicator light won't even light up.

No you don't need the transformer connected to the circuit board to get the AC readings of the transformer.
Sound like a new one is needed. Phil.

Zappacat

Quote from: J M Fahey on August 17, 2009, 09:47:47 PM
Hi Zappacat.
The page of the Chinese supplier is: http://www.kwanwing.com:81/Product/?page=64&sortid=
According to the schematic and what you have, the connector pinout should be:1/2/3/4/5-->blue/black/blue/red/red and you should read
a)AC volts relative to ground: 1/2/3-->15/0/15
b)AC volts relative to each other, not to ground: from 4 to 5 : 7 V
On the primary side you have 3 wires, only 2 are connected to 120V AC , the 3rd unconnected one is the 100V tap.
Unless it smokes/sparks or is open, I don't think you have a transformer problem.
What are the symptoms?.

When I'm measuring 1/2/3-->15/0/15 I need to have the black test probe attached to ground right?  I've got it attached to the ground screw coming in from the AC main line in.

For pins 4 and 5(7 volts) what should I have the ground lead test connected to for an accurate reading?

I've been looking for a replacement(online) for this transformer.  I can't seem to get the KWANWING page link to load that was given in one of the earlier messages.  Is it possible for you guys who can read chinese to tell me what the power rating for this transformer is?  I'm just trying to find a cheap suitable replacement from mouser or digikey or somewhere online cheap.  I've been without ANY guitar amp for quite a while now.  Thanks for the help guys!
I put my pants on just like the rest of you - one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records.

J M Fahey

Hi Zappacat. If you touch the black test lead to the chassis ground but the connector is unplugged, it's not ground any more !!!
To make it short:
NOTE: the transformer´s primary must be connected to 120VAC wall socket, the power switch must be on.
BE VERY CAREFUL WITH EVERYTHING THAT´S CONNECTED TO MAINS: POWER CABLE, FUSE, POWER SWITCH, ANYTHING ELSE I MIGHT HAVE FORGOTTEN BUT THAT YOU SEE IS CONNECTED TO THAT.
continuing:
1)put your DMM in 20V AC scale
2)Put the black probe into the transformer connector, in the hole nº2. Leave it there.
3)Put the red probe into hole nº1, you should read around 15V (AC)
4)Put the red probe into the hole nº 3. You should read about the same voltage as before.
5)Pull the black probe from Hole nº2 and put it in hole nº 4
6)Put the red probe into hole nº 5. You should read around 7V AC.
7) If you measure nothing on any of the earlier tests (or a ridiculously low voltage, as less than 1 volt) your transformer´s primary is open.
To be sure about that, you must check that the 120V reach the primary.
PULL THE POWER PLUG, and measure resistance across its pins: it should read "infinite" with the power switch off and a reasonable value (say 10 to 40 ohms) with power on.
If always open, "trace" it step by step, for example: from 1 power plug pin to one of the other ends of the power cable, from there to the next part of the circuit, say for example the fuse holder , and so on, until you reach the other power pin socket.
*IF* the transformer itself is open , then we´ll try to replace it.
To save time, try to measure the iron core itself, preferably in centimeters or millimeters rather than in fractions of inch.
Measure the height, the width and the thickness of the iron stack, plastic bobbin measurements help to confirm the former values.
Good luck.

NOTE: the transformer´s primary must be connected to 120VAC wall socket, the power switch must be on.
BE VERY CAREFUL WITH EVERYTHING THAT´S CONNECTED TO MAINS: POWER CABLE, FUSE, POWER SWITCH, ANYTHING ELSE I MIGHT HAVE FORGOTTEN BUT THAT YOU SEE IS CONNECTED TO THAT.
Example: neon pilot light, auxiliary power outlet, voltage selector, etc.

Zappacat

Thanks JM.  With your help I've established that the transformer is working.  I didn't understand certain grounding issues and when I followed your steps it worked.  Anyone know much about the troubleshooting procedures for these line6 amps?  It seems the controls are inactive.  Nothing is lighting up or anything.  Any help greatly appreciated.
I put my pants on just like the rest of you - one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records.

J M Fahey

Next logical step:
Plug the transformer connector in its socket, turn the amp on, touch the ground screw with  the black probe and check with the red one that you have + and - 20/22 DC volts on the + and - tracks/pads of the power supply. The multimeter must be on the 200VDC scale. Then check that you have also around 8 or 9 volts unregulated or 5 volts regulated, which feed the logical/digital board.
If the digital part is dead it´s beyond you, me, and most everybody else, .
In that case the only sensible things to do are either have it factory-replaced under guarantee (I think now it´s late for that) or gut it and use it to build a "regular" analog amp.
Good luck.

Zappacat

Quote from: J M Fahey on August 19, 2009, 02:50:32 AM
Next logical step:
Plug the transformer connector in its socket, turn the amp on, touch the ground screw with  the black probe and check with the red one that you have + and - 20/22 DC volts on the + and - tracks/pads of the power supply.
Can you clarify to me what/where the + and - tracks/pads of the power supply are?
Quote
The multimeter must be on the 200VDC scale. Then check that you have also around 8 or 9 volts unregulated or 5 volts regulated, which feed the logical/digital board.
What location should I be checking for this volatage?  The unregulated vs. regulated has me confused.
QuoteIf the digital part is dead it´s beyond you, me, and most everybody else,
In that case the only sensible things to do are either have it factory-replaced under guarantee (I think now it´s late for that) or gut it and use it to build a "regular" analog amp.
Good luck.
Thanks a lot for the help.  It has a Celestion "custom made" C12E-50 4 ohm speaker.  I can probably turn this into something cool.
I put my pants on just like the rest of you - one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records.