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BIANCHI mustard capacitors for Marshall.

Started by vmed_cha_gr, October 12, 2012, 08:37:39 AM

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vmed_cha_gr

Hi
I want to make a tube amp based on Marshall circuits. I'm good with electronics.
Are these the capacitors that Marshall was using in the old days in their Amps?
I found them new old stock !!!

kit of 12 BIANCHI mustard 10nF 22nF 33nF 47nF 56nF 68nF 150nF 220nF Marshall JTM | eBay

Roly

Well I'm pretty dubious about this.

I've been sticking my head in the back of valve amps for 50-some years and I don't recall the name Bianchi.  I was also unaware that Mullard manufactured capacitors.  I'm not saying they didn't, Philips certainly did, just that it's a name I associate only with valves and early semiconductors, and again I can't remember ever seeing a cap branded "Mullard".

These "mustards" will be polyester dielectric, and again having been building and repairing amps, and many other sorts of equipment where capacitor dielectrics are significant, I have no time for what I consider to be Hi-Fi cork sniffing.

Being NoS these will now have well tarnished leads which will make soldering them in a chore.

Just to check my memory I've had a look at underchassis pix of a number of vintage Marshall's available on the web (Google images "marshall chassis"), and I can see a number of problems.

Not all Marshall's used this style of "mustard" cap, in those that did the majority are labeled around the cap, not along it, the printing is quite different, and the name Bianchi can't be seen anywhere.  I also question the value markings as nnnnnnpF.  As you can see, this is a modern idea and in the era caps were marked only in "uF"; even "nF" was to come later.  Only very small value caps, generally less than 1000pF, were marked in pF and may indeed have been marked as uuF - micro, micro farads.



They don't look anything like, do they?

So mojo mythology aside, I don't think these are even genuine NoS.

Go buy some reasonable quality brand new caps from a reputable supplier.
If you say theory and practice don't agree you haven't applied enough theory.

J M Fahey

Well, I checked a little, went straight to the source: Spain.
Where I have the language advantage :)
Yes, they are legit, although unknown outside Spain.
Philips had their headquarters in Eindhoven, Holland, but in the old days before stupid Globalization, Countries protected their Markets and own industries, usually behind high Tariff barriers.
So if you wanted to be competitive in a certain Country, you had to set a Factory there.
Obviously, with original machinery, raw materials, Engineering and control, the works.
So Multinational Philips had to comply, and set factories all over the World, many times using a local, Country specific Brand (But inside they were *all* Philips).
So it was Mullard in UK, Miniwatt in Spain, FAPESA in Argentina, etc.
One deadaway indicator of the common origin, was that the same Technical Manuals were used everywhere, only translated to the local language, but maintaining the same layout, formatting, etc. ; obviously the images and graphs were the same !!!
Along the way, Globalization started, the Far East became the World Electronics Factory (crazy move in my opinion) , Governments were pushed to lower barriers , even through a bloodbath.
Argentina had a bloody Revolution in 1976 , with 30000 "disappeared", (kidnapped and murdered) to "open frontiers to International Capital", destroy our Industry, etc.
Philips (and Siemens, Texas Instruments and others too) closed their local factories, although in some cases they sold them to the former workers, who kept them open.
Bianchi is clearly one such case.
They continued making Philips components, obviously with the same machinery and specs, and managed to evolve and they are now a big Industrial Capacitor Factory on their own.
Check http://www.bianchi.es/
Check this old Bianchi catalog, *clearly* a Philips Spain one, with "Bianchi" replacing Philips (or Miniwatt) on the cover, but the rest *exactly* the same.





Now to the big question: are these caps real "Mustard" ones? YES
Were Bianchi branded caps used in Marshalls? Quite unlikely but not impossible.
If they *really* needed them and nothing else and Philips (British or Holland) could not supply for any conceivable reason (strikes or whatever) they might very well be supplied from the Spanish factory, why not?
I know one such case: Mini Moogs (USA made, of course) depend on 1 specific capacitor, in the main oscillator.
If it drifts, there goes your tuning ;)
They specified a very high stability Mallory Polyester (they called it Styroflex) cap.
For one reason or another the USA made one was not available ... and they used the SIC-Mallory Argentine made one.
I was surprised when I saw them inside Moogs in the early 70's, and though they had been replaced in servicing ... no Sir, not at all, they were inside just pulled from the box Mini Moogs.
One real example, in an original Moog PCB:

2 points to check:
Ind Arg means Industria Argentina= Made in Argentina.
and the date code 7148 (week 48 of 1971).
In the late 60's, early 70's *we* sold Radios and TVs to Korea !!!!!!!!

Argentine made Miniwatt brand (Philips) OC71 Germanium transistor


Argentine made Texas Instruments TIP30B and 2A267 FET



Maybe a certain guy called Roly can say a few words about 70's Australian made amps, "Celestions" and other stuff.

An example of a 70's made Argentine amp, still alive and kicking, posted on Facebook by its proud owner:

Roly

Thank you for that JM, very informative.  This may explain why such components were coded but not branded.

Yes, Australia also continues to suffer the erosion of our manufacturing industries thanks to "globalisation".  We also had a thriving electronics industry including valve and later semiconductor manufacturers, of which only one of military importance remains.

Australia has always suffered what we call "the cultural cringe" - the assumption that anything imported is automatically better than domestically made, despite continual evidence to the contrary.

I often say that the problem with Australia is that we had a revolution - The Eureka Rebellion of 1854 - and lost.  We remained a supine British outpost until WW2 when we morphed into becoming a supine client of the US.  In some significant ways we still remain a colony of the (now defunct) British Empire.


But to return to the effective topic in hand; "do original capacitors make the amplifier?", to which I shout a loud NO!

The primary determinant of the tonality of a valve amplifier is the output transformer.  People will argue about what comes second, third, fourth, and so on, but in overall tonality it is generally argued that it is the combination of speaker cab and fitted driver that next gives a particular rig its "voice".  There is little reason to think that the capacitor dielectrics, or resistor compositions, have anything more than a sixth or seventh order effect, if that.

I remain highly sceptical that even the most Golden Eared guitarist could identify which amp was using original or modern passives in an A/B test.  The main contribution carbon composition resistors and waxed paper capacitors make to the sound of an old amp is much the same as the surface noise and scratches on old disk recordings, or the "tram tracks" on old films.

Solderablity aside, unlike waxed paper these poly "mustard caps" are probably still quite serviceable, but will they make any significant difference to the tonality of a modern build?  Will they make any difference to the tonality of a modern build?

If it can be heard it can be measured, and until someone can show me measurements, I dismiss this as simply Hyper-Fi bunk come to guitar amps.
If you say theory and practice don't agree you haven't applied enough theory.

J M Fahey

Fully agree and add:
just editing your post a little:

QuoteArgentina has always suffered what we call "the cultural cringe" - the assumption that anything imported is automatically better than domestically made, despite continual evidence to the contrary.

I often say that the problem with Argentina is that we had a revolution - The Revolución de Mayo in 1810 - and "won".  We became a supine British outpost until WW2 when we morphed into becoming a supine client of the US.  In some significant ways we still remain a colony of the (now defunct) British Empire and of the dying American Empire.
As you see , chilling similarities.
In some points, slightly more like New Zealand, but I bet it does not change the story very much.

Roly

Quote from: J M Fahey
slightly more like New Zealand

Wot?  You mean you guys lust after sheep too?  :lmao: (and here I was thinking that you had cornered the market on stunningly beautiful women)  You do realise that most of the Kiwi's are over here?

I know there a quite a few similarities, but my impression at least is of a country that has cojones.

Here we have the worst bunch of politicians in living memory; the Left is in the middle-Right, and the Right has gone Tea Party (and between State and Federal we've got 600 of the ... um ... critters - worse than rabbits  :grr  ).

Ah yes, the current US choice, economy off a cliff sooner, or later?  What interesting times.   :duh
If you say theory and practice don't agree you haven't applied enough theory.

JHow

Very informative post, JM.  I have always wanted a mini-moog.  Now I will pay more attention to component codes if I get one.

J M Fahey

Dear Roly, we have been cheated.
Spent valuable time searching to properly answer this question .... which was FAKE.
This guy  really is the EBay SELLER of this stuff, but instead of posting it in the "for sale" section, where it belongs, pushed it here, trying to light a discussion which would only benefit him.
Got curious because I found the exact same question in MEF, also from the same member who had joined, "asked a question" , and NEVER EVER  came back to look for an answer.
Googled a little and saw him do the same all over the Net.  :trouble
Βασίλης (Vassilis) is from Greece, and, not surprisingly, the EBay seller (who uses another name: ) just "by chance" ships from "Item location: Argostoli, Kefalonia, Greece"
Small world, huh?  :lmao:
PS: he also "asks" about replica watches, tubes, you name it.

Roly

Well done!   :dbtu:

Quote from: Roly
Well I'm pretty dubious about this.

+1 for intuition then?  It was the unspoken premise that magical caps would somehow produce a Marshall...   ::)
If you say theory and practice don't agree you haven't applied enough theory.

J M Fahey


Roly

No, take a "Win!" button for outing him.   :dbtu:



I keep getting spam from "Search Engine Optimizers" who claim that "I've looked at your web site..." - where it states on the first page that it's non-commercial.  And I would want to give business to bald faced liars ... or even sneaky liars?  You'd think they would get a clue from the .ORG domain.

After I registered "ozvalveamps" I had people trying to sell me .COM, .CHN, &c.  One told me that  some wealthy Chinese businessman was trying to register the .COM and I had a narrow window of opportunity to get in first.  "Wealthy?  Oh good, well let him register my trademark and I'll sue his socks off; alternatively you can register it to me for free."  End of story.  :lmao:
If you say theory and practice don't agree you haven't applied enough theory.

J M Fahey

Best answer possible ;)

My own answer when I get one of those Nigerian Scams: 
"I just discovered U$25 Million sleeping in a Bank Account in Mombasa or Ouagadougou and I need *your* help to pull them, you can keep U$ 5 million for helping me"
is some variant of:
"tHANKS goD , i NEED THEM FOR MY lAWYER, i'M IN dEATH rOW FOR SERIAL mURDER / NEEd THEM FOR A pSyCHIaTRiST   I?M IN A pSYcHIAtRIc WARd FOR tHE cRIMINALLy iNSaNE" and URGE them to send me at least 1 Million NOW because I'm dead broke.
They run like rabbits  :lmao:

phatt

Arrh!
So J M Fahey builds and repairs electronic stuff but it's just a shop front for the Argentinian Falcon Detective Agency,, No?

I suppose you also drive around in one of those slick looking Falcon Cars We mentioned a while back.  8)

Good Detective work chum. :tu:
Phil.

Roly

If you say theory and practice don't agree you haven't applied enough theory.

J M Fahey

That Maltese Falcon eats birdseed; the one I mentioned eats high octane gasoline ..... unfortunately a lot of it :(

I think it must be a Southern Hemisphere thing, because "somebody" told me they continued to be made in Australia  :o
Our last one was made in Sept 10 1991 .  :'(