Solid State Amplifiers > Tubes and Hybrids
My Rig and how I can get a beter sound
spud:
Hi guys,
I just played at a party last night with some guys that I've been jamming with - we're starting to put together a pretty good band. This was our 6th or so session playing together and the singer has only been playing with us for the last 3 practices so this "gig" (party) was only his 4th time with us. We played about an hour (we only felt comfortable playing about 12 songs of 25 we've been working on) and I think it went really well - the people kept saying how good we sounded, esp the singer - he is killer. Well, I'm not happy with my sound. I have a 1993 Marshall Valvestate 8080 Combo (80w) with the original 8 ohm Eminence OEM speaker in it. The other guitarist is playing through a Peavy Valveking 100/120 W half stack. Obviously, his sound is much fuller/deeper, with way more punch. My amp sounds thin - I think it sounds like a toy. He says it's the speaker and I need to get a 4 x 12 or at least a 2 x 12 sealed back. I think that's part of it but I'm also suspecting the SS power amp in my Marshall just won't cut it. In the room we practice in I can get a reasonable sound out of it but we were playing outdoors last night (backyard party) and my amp was just not putting out even though it's a 80w amp (well that's what it's rated for).
Obviously, the simple solution would be to buy a half stack like his and that would be it - well, money's tight and I don't have the $700.00 or more it would take to do that (I want a good amp, not something cheap). So some ideas I've got on how to "fix" my set up for minimal investment of cash.
1) I have a separate speaker cab - a Jet City 1 x 12 that I got for super cheap at a local music store. They were getting rid of all their Jet City stuff and the price was so low I couldn't resist. It has a 16 ohm Jet City Speaker in it made by Eminence (not sure of the "model" as it just says Jet City on it) and is a totally sealed back cab. So my question is: can I run this safely with my Marshall amp? My amp has a hard wired cable going to the speaker and no "speaker output" jack. I could install a jack really easily but it would just be coming off the same leads just going to a jack. I guess my question on this is can I run the 16 ohm Jet City speaker cab without hurting my amp? Also, related to that question: can I parallel the Jet City cab with my amp speaker safely - this would be about 12 ohm load (parallel)?
2) As I mentioned about paralleling the Jet City cab and the internal speaker, if it's not safe can I install an 8 ohm power resistor (50w or more) wired in series with my internal speaker (or the cable) to raise the impedance to 16 ohms and with that in parallel with the jet city it would be ~8 ohm load for the amp.
NOTE: One thing I've heard is that it's safer to go up in speaker impedance (like to 16 or even 12) than to go down (to 4 or 2) with a SS power amp (or any amp really) - is this true? Does this matter?
3) Is it ok to "seal" up my combo cab as it is now an open back (almost the entire rear is open)? The other guitar player said it would make my amp overheat but there's nothing at the bottom of the chassis that is dissipating heat - no vents, no heat sink fins, just a bank chassis. If needed I could put a small fan somewhere to help reduce the heat but at this time, the amp has no heat issues and is always pretty cool running so I'm not sure if this necessary. Related to this, if I can seal it up, I'm thinking of leaving a "port" to see if I can "tune" it for best sound/bass response or should I just seal it completely.
4) Another thing is I've considered replacing the internal speaker with a high efficiency model like the Emi Wizard or even a Vintage 30 as I'm not sure of the OEM speaker's efficiency rating - probably sucks. I've also heard good things about the Private Jack. So that might be a low cost option - probably not more than $100.- dollars or so. I've also considered replacing the speaker in the Jet City cab with a Wizard or Private Jack or something along those lines. I'm open to any opinions on speakers that might be good for this (keep in mind that this amp is Marshall's attempt to create a JCM like sound in a lower priced SS/Tube hybrid amp so that's the sound "signature" that this amp is intended for). Obviously, I'd do the internal one first but I was concerned that if I replaced it with an 8 ohm one, I'd have the same issues like I discussed in #1 (12 ohm total parallel impedance load). If I replaced it with a 16 ohm, I'd have 8 ohm's in parallel but if I wanted to just run the internal speaker alone, I'd be back to a 16 ohm load. So back to the question #1....is 16 ohm ok?
Well, sorry for the long email. Really appreciate any insights from you guys on what would be the best option/solution or even if you have other ideas. I realize that it would ever get to being the equal of the half stack but I'm just looking to get the sound NOT TO SUCK - as I'm feeling it does now. I guess I really need more bass/low end, more punch/tightness, and I need to move more air.
And yes, I fully realize that a longer term solution is to build a 50w or so Tube head and get a decent 2 x 12 or 4 x 12 setup. I'm working toward that but I'm currently in the middle of a Tweed Deluxe build that is now in it's third year! Still haven't drilled my chassis yet so I'm still not committed to my layout and keep changing it (the wonders of VISIO - I call it virtual amp building). Anyway, after I get this issue resolved with my current setup and if I can get it to sound Ok (and I make progress on that Tweed Deluxe), I'll get to work on that 50 watter - probably a Trainwreck variant as I just love that tone it has.
Thanks in advance for all the input/advice -
Jim (aka Spud)
Prologue:
BTW if you're interested here's my Tweed Deluxe stuff as it stands now:
http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/spudjds/Public/Builds/AMPS/5E3/
Also, here's all my DIY and Guitar stuff on Photobucket:
http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/spudjds/Public/
I welcome any comments.
Thanks again.
spud:
Hey, just realized this might have been better to post to "Players Corner". Not a big deal but if the admins want please feel free to move it there if for nothing else, house keeping.
Thanks -
Jim
mexicanyella:
Before deciding your amp is a problem, make sure you've given some thought to these points:
From my experience, an open back combo will not behave like a closed 4 x 12 and won't flap people's pants as hard, but that doesn't have to be a negative thing. I've found closed 4 x 12s to produce a fairly focused beam of sound, which can really zoom out off the stage but can tear some people's heads off while not being as audible as you might like elsewhere in the room (obviously not as much a factor if everyone's playing at modest levels and miked through the PA).
Open-back combos don't project as well, but produce a more diffuse sphere of sound around the amp. In some ensembles and styles of playing, this might be preferable, and getting the amp up off the floor or at least tilted back and aimed at your head, or aimed across the stage at everyone in the band's head like a sidefill monitor...that might help you compete in terms of cutting through the onstage mix.
As far as sounding thin and toylike...what kind of music are you playing, and are you cutting out a bunch of mids? It's a Marshall, baby! The mids are where the magic is--check out some early Walt Mink music!--and also constitute the frequencies that are easiest to make seem "loud" to us. Especially if the other guitar player scoops his mids, you've got an opportunity to expand here. Before chasing off after other gear, make sure you've explored your eq settings...in the context of the band's mix, not solo. What might not be an ideal tone by yourself can sound great in a mix. Give some thought to conserving sonic real estate so everyone's not stepping all over each other. If one guy has scooped mids, the other guy can dial up some mids, be heard and not be in the same equalization "zone."
I'm not familiar with the 8080 specifically, but if it has no ext. speaker jacks and has an 8-ohm speaker in it, it probably wants to see an 8-ohm load. Two 16-ohm speakers in parallel make an 8-ohm load; you could install a 16-ohm speaker in your amp and combine it with a 16-ohm cabinet in parallel and have more volume that way, and just live with somewhat reduced output when using the amp without the cab, due to the impedance mismatch. But before doing that, or replacing the speaker with a more efficient one, I'd try eq-ing it with "cutting through the mix" in mind and experimenting with where the amp is onstage and at what height/angle. I have heard Valvestate heads through various cabinets in bands before and thought that they could sound good, so don't start buying stuff until you have exhausted the options with what you already have...consider its compact size and easy portability! With your one-trip load-out, think of how helpful you can be to the other bandmembers in helping to load out their gear! Yeah!
J M Fahey:
1) get/buy/steal/build a 4x12"
2) fill it with good 8 ohms speakers.
At least Jensen MOD1270 or any Emi Legend/Blackpowder or Emi Governors or G12T or Greenbacks or V30.
The order follows the cost.
3) add a backpanel jack connected to the power amp and solder a plug to the internal speaker.
In a rehearsal or a small place use the internal speaker; un a larger venue unplug it and connect the 8 ohm 4x12" .
4) do not add speakers in parallel with the internal one.
16 + 8 ohms means 5.3 ohms, not 12.
mexicanyella:
In my post above, I meant to add that if you're using a really distorted sound right now, even if you're not sucking out most or all of the mids, you should try backing the gain down in increments and maybe cranking the amp's output louder if needed.
In my first band, the lead singer/rhythm guitarist used an 80-watt Laney 1 x 12 combo and a strat, and he kept up fine with my 100-watt half-stack and the bass player's 350-watt Harkte...using a low-to-medium gain sound, but loud.
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